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Declassified memo 'confirms' direct connection between Saudi government and 9/11

70 points by codechicago277 4y ago

forgotmypw17 4y ago
https://archive.ph/JEf9w https://archive.ph/JEf9w
dudeinjapan 4y ago
One gets the sense that oil has enabled some really bad people to stay in power.
- jeffwask 4y ago
  Stay in power, gain power, halt scientific and cultural progress, destroy the environment, abuse and exploit native populations, embolden police brutality, murder dissenting voices...
  - nagasadhu 4y ago
    That's not unique to the Saudis or oil money. Lot of communist regimes have done it too.. Khmer in Cambodia, many central african regimes. Not to mention European history. Probably the best example of this statement would be the early white settlers to North America or European settlers in South America.
    - jeffwask 4y ago
      I was applying this to oil in general not specifically the Saudis and quite honestly the American Oil Corporations are by far the largest offenders they have been doing it longer and harder than anyone. ...everything you said is facts tho.
      - nagasadhu 4y ago
        Interesting you feel that way... The point i was trying to make was that oil or financial strength seems to have little to do with exploitation of humans and other resources. Colonialism for example. I feel its just the dark side of human civilization and comes from a sense of exceptionalism. The Americans and the colonialists before them just took great pains to varnish their actions with random moral arguments and exceptionalism. Many others didn't bother with the whitewashing. One curious note is that only the gulf countries fuelled religious extremism with oil. Even then not all of them. None of the other major oil deposit holders like Norway or Russia did anything to further ideology. Political power may be. But not ideology.
        aliswe 4y ago
        can you elaborate on the religious extremism part?
        nagasadhu 4y ago
        A huge part of the Afghan war against the Soviets was funded by private citizens of the gulf. Huge sums of oil money were spent on recruiting religious mercenaries. Saudis spend huge sums annually on exporting wahabi islam overseas. Iran has their version of this arrangement too. The Saudis offered to build mosques all through Europe when asked to do their share for the Syrian refugees. I call this religious extremism. An intolerance of other religions combined with forceful propagation of your own. Somehow muslims in the gulf and other countries feel the need to fight for muslims in other sovereign countries. Never heard of a practising Christian voicing a protest against treatment of Christians in some sovereign Islamic republic. On the other hand i never heard of the Russian orthodox church meddling in the affairs of other countries. The KGB maybe.. but not the church. The distinction being religious ideology vs others. Political islam is unlike political Christianity. Political Christianity died with the crusades. Political islam thrives in the modern age. Mix that with oil money u get a deadly combo. Sure the west has bombed the daylights out of the middle east but again it was for sake of pure financial gain from oil. America is out for global military dominance. That's the political ideology. It is not fighting a crusade which is a religious ideology.
        4y ago
      - ROTMetro 4y ago
        Since American oil companies were some of the first and largest, they have been doing everything relating to oil the longest and largest, so what is your point?
        PhileasNietzche 4y ago
        Point? They're just using their knowledge base to excuse the OP's complaint with the typical and weak argument that "everybody does it" while assuming there was some insinuation or belief that oil barons are the only people in the extensive history of humanity guilty of these crimes.
        jeffwask 4y ago
        I didn't think I would have to explain this to a philosopher on a short form blogging platform but yes there have been numerous destructive forces in society but the comment I was extending was "oil has enabled bad people to stay in power" so I wasn't looking to write a thesis but sure... we can add religion, colonialism, nationalism, capitalism, gold, big tech... there are more isms but I digress. And in theory we could lump oil, gold, etc under capitalism but oil (and more broadly fossil fuels) have had an outsized impact over the last 50-100 and in that very short time on overall scale have sewed massive destruction and continue to do so. It doesn't make other things more or less bad but big oil has more power than countries today. (Big tech is getting close Apple would be ranked in the 30's if it was a country.) Exxon's $316.993B puts them between Singapore and Malaysia and pushing Ireland and Denmark next year... fucking Ireland. (Now think about where they are if you combine all of them because their interests very much align) From what I can see the world is far from prepared for corporations wielding more power than governments in fact that is the topic of a lot of dystopian fiction. It's far from theoretical... governments didn't shut down the Russian economy... they are still debating if they should shut down Russian oil (hmm there it is again) ...it was corporations who shut down Russia which should be a warning light even though many (myself included) agree with the outcome. The stifling of emissions controls, fuel efficiency, alternative energies, regulation on pipelines and spills, emissions from extraction, fracking are horrific even when compared to other industries and destructive forces. They actively seek to destroy anything that could compete often murdering the tech in the research phase and using their limitless resources to spew propaganda and convince the masses of bullshit. We can focus on one set of guilty people doing a thing right fucking now without having to include everyone else who has ever done a thing.
karmakaze 4y ago
I was wondering why the scare-quotes. Curiously when viewing in reader mode the title is "Saudis directly tied to 9/11: declassified documents"
qiskit 4y ago
I think most people would have guessed elements of saudi, israeli, british and american governments/agencies were involved in 9/11. Doubt anything would happen unless the saudis, israelis or british decide to do switch teams and join the russian or chinese bloc.
- hidudeurcool 4y ago
- rightbyte 4y ago
  Why UK?
  - dannyphantom 4y ago
  - PhileasNietzche 4y ago
    Because the leader of your government at the time was in lockstep with the US?
ncmncm 4y ago
The article mentions Anwar al-Awlaki, but does not mention that he was an American citizen (born in New Mexico) and executed via drone under an order signed by Barack Obama. His 16-year-old son, also an American citizen (born in Colorado), was executed by drone two weeks later. His 8-year-old daughter, another American citizen, was executed in 2017 under order by Donald Trump, with a bullet to the neck. Her last words were reported as "Don't cry, mama. I'm fine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nawar_al-Awlaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nawar_al-Awlaki
- akhmatova 4y ago
  His 16-year-old son, also an American citizen (born in Colorado), was executed by drone two weeks later. His 8-year-old daughter, another American citizen, was executed in 2017 under order by Donald Trump, with a bullet to the neck. There is no evidence that either of these were targetted killings, let alone "executions". And it is intellectually dishonest to suggest otherwise.
  - tsol 4y ago
    Whether it's targeted or not, it's an execution. There have been countless civilian deaths, claiming it's unintentional is like driving into a park and saying you didn't target anyone so it wasn't murder.
    - akhmatova 4y ago
      It's like driving into a park and saying you didn't target anyone so it wasn't murder. Don't know what to tell you, other than that's not the way the English language works. Regardless of your feelings about the moral and geopolitical aspects of the situation -- the verbs "to murder" and "to execute" obviously mean very different things, in plain functional terms. That's all there is to it.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        You can play whatever word games you like, but blood is on the hands of everybody who was in a position not to do it, who did anyway. And, on everybody whose job it is to prosecute them, and has not. The President is nowhere assigned any legal authority to waste US citizens on his own say-so, so everybody involved participated in what is, by strictest legal definition, a murder. There were accessories before the fact, and after, with copious documentary evidence.
asdffdsaqwerty 4y ago
There is information about this in the FBI Al-Awlaki case file. Basically this Saudi guy that worked for Saudi intelligence paid for the housing of two of the hijackers and lived across the street. There was also some inquiry because, IIRC, he gave them a computer that had a flight simulator installed. This entire time the US Government knew it and covered it up and instead blamed Iran, Iraq, et cetera
tsol 4y ago
So they put confirm in quotes because it isn't actually confirmed. It is rather suspicious, but as stated >Zelikow, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, told Insider he's skeptical that Bayoumi knew about the plot, or that he was working for Saudi intelligence. Many high-ranking Saudis, Zelikow pointed out, were despised by bin Laden and opposed to his efforts. "The information that Bayoumi might have been a paid informant ... if it is true, actually tends to cut the other way," Zelikow said — suggesting that Bayoumi would have been working against the hijackers. >Zelikow, for his part, remains skeptical. He suggested that the drawing and calculations might be related to Bayoumi's work with the Saudi Civil Aviation Authority. "It is possible that someone working in civil aviation might have worked on such equations, for various reasons," he said. So still unconfirmed, more of a clickbait title than incontrovertible proof
ne38 4y ago
faire faire is verb in french which comes from latin bar bar This is what usa dondon to ksa

forgotmypw17 4y ago

https://archive.ph/JEf9w https://archive.ph/JEf9w

dudeinjapan 4y ago

One gets the sense that oil has enabled some really bad people to stay in power.

jeffwask 4y ago
Stay in power, gain power, halt scientific and cultural progress, destroy the environment, abuse and exploit native populations, embolden police brutality, murder dissenting voices...
- nagasadhu 4y ago
  That's not unique to the Saudis or oil money. Lot of communist regimes have done it too.. Khmer in Cambodia, many central african regimes. Not to mention European history. Probably the best example of this statement would be the early white settlers to North America or European settlers in South America.
  - jeffwask 4y ago
    I was applying this to oil in general not specifically the Saudis and quite honestly the American Oil Corporations are by far the largest offenders they have been doing it longer and harder than anyone. ...everything you said is facts tho.
    - nagasadhu 4y ago
      Interesting you feel that way... The point i was trying to make was that oil or financial strength seems to have little to do with exploitation of humans and other resources. Colonialism for example. I feel its just the dark side of human civilization and comes from a sense of exceptionalism. The Americans and the colonialists before them just took great pains to varnish their actions with random moral arguments and exceptionalism. Many others didn't bother with the whitewashing. One curious note is that only the gulf countries fuelled religious extremism with oil. Even then not all of them. None of the other major oil deposit holders like Norway or Russia did anything to further ideology. Political power may be. But not ideology.
      - aliswe 4y ago
        can you elaborate on the religious extremism part?
        nagasadhu 4y ago
        A huge part of the Afghan war against the Soviets was funded by private citizens of the gulf. Huge sums of oil money were spent on recruiting religious mercenaries. Saudis spend huge sums annually on exporting wahabi islam overseas. Iran has their version of this arrangement too. The Saudis offered to build mosques all through Europe when asked to do their share for the Syrian refugees. I call this religious extremism. An intolerance of other religions combined with forceful propagation of your own. Somehow muslims in the gulf and other countries feel the need to fight for muslims in other sovereign countries. Never heard of a practising Christian voicing a protest against treatment of Christians in some sovereign Islamic republic. On the other hand i never heard of the Russian orthodox church meddling in the affairs of other countries. The KGB maybe.. but not the church. The distinction being religious ideology vs others. Political islam is unlike political Christianity. Political Christianity died with the crusades. Political islam thrives in the modern age. Mix that with oil money u get a deadly combo. Sure the west has bombed the daylights out of the middle east but again it was for sake of pure financial gain from oil. America is out for global military dominance. That's the political ideology. It is not fighting a crusade which is a religious ideology.
      - 4y ago
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      Since American oil companies were some of the first and largest, they have been doing everything relating to oil the longest and largest, so what is your point?
      - PhileasNietzche 4y ago
        Point? They're just using their knowledge base to excuse the OP's complaint with the typical and weak argument that "everybody does it" while assuming there was some insinuation or belief that oil barons are the only people in the extensive history of humanity guilty of these crimes.
        jeffwask 4y ago
        I didn't think I would have to explain this to a philosopher on a short form blogging platform but yes there have been numerous destructive forces in society but the comment I was extending was "oil has enabled bad people to stay in power" so I wasn't looking to write a thesis but sure... we can add religion, colonialism, nationalism, capitalism, gold, big tech... there are more isms but I digress. And in theory we could lump oil, gold, etc under capitalism but oil (and more broadly fossil fuels) have had an outsized impact over the last 50-100 and in that very short time on overall scale have sewed massive destruction and continue to do so. It doesn't make other things more or less bad but big oil has more power than countries today. (Big tech is getting close Apple would be ranked in the 30's if it was a country.) Exxon's $316.993B puts them between Singapore and Malaysia and pushing Ireland and Denmark next year... fucking Ireland. (Now think about where they are if you combine all of them because their interests very much align) From what I can see the world is far from prepared for corporations wielding more power than governments in fact that is the topic of a lot of dystopian fiction. It's far from theoretical... governments didn't shut down the Russian economy... they are still debating if they should shut down Russian oil (hmm there it is again) ...it was corporations who shut down Russia which should be a warning light even though many (myself included) agree with the outcome. The stifling of emissions controls, fuel efficiency, alternative energies, regulation on pipelines and spills, emissions from extraction, fracking are horrific even when compared to other industries and destructive forces. They actively seek to destroy anything that could compete often murdering the tech in the research phase and using their limitless resources to spew propaganda and convince the masses of bullshit. We can focus on one set of guilty people doing a thing right fucking now without having to include everyone else who has ever done a thing.

karmakaze 4y ago

I was wondering why the scare-quotes. Curiously when viewing in reader mode the title is "Saudis directly tied to 9/11: declassified documents"

qiskit 4y ago

I think most people would have guessed elements of saudi, israeli, british and american governments/agencies were involved in 9/11. Doubt anything would happen unless the saudis, israelis or british decide to do switch teams and join the russian or chinese bloc.

hidudeurcool 4y ago
rightbyte 4y ago
Why UK?
- dannyphantom 4y ago
- PhileasNietzche 4y ago
  Because the leader of your government at the time was in lockstep with the US?

ncmncm 4y ago

The article mentions Anwar al-Awlaki, but does not mention that he was an American citizen (born in New Mexico) and executed via drone under an order signed by Barack Obama. His 16-year-old son, also an American citizen (born in Colorado), was executed by drone two weeks later. His 8-year-old daughter, another American citizen, was executed in 2017 under order by Donald Trump, with a bullet to the neck. Her last words were reported as "Don't cry, mama. I'm fine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nawar_al-Awlaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nawar_al-Awlaki

akhmatova 4y ago
His 16-year-old son, also an American citizen (born in Colorado), was executed by drone two weeks later. His 8-year-old daughter, another American citizen, was executed in 2017 under order by Donald Trump, with a bullet to the neck. There is no evidence that either of these were targetted killings, let alone "executions". And it is intellectually dishonest to suggest otherwise.
- tsol 4y ago
  Whether it's targeted or not, it's an execution. There have been countless civilian deaths, claiming it's unintentional is like driving into a park and saying you didn't target anyone so it wasn't murder.
  - akhmatova 4y ago
    It's like driving into a park and saying you didn't target anyone so it wasn't murder. Don't know what to tell you, other than that's not the way the English language works. Regardless of your feelings about the moral and geopolitical aspects of the situation -- the verbs "to murder" and "to execute" obviously mean very different things, in plain functional terms. That's all there is to it.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      You can play whatever word games you like, but blood is on the hands of everybody who was in a position not to do it, who did anyway. And, on everybody whose job it is to prosecute them, and has not. The President is nowhere assigned any legal authority to waste US citizens on his own say-so, so everybody involved participated in what is, by strictest legal definition, a murder. There were accessories before the fact, and after, with copious documentary evidence.

asdffdsaqwerty 4y ago

There is information about this in the FBI Al-Awlaki case file. Basically this Saudi guy that worked for Saudi intelligence paid for the housing of two of the hijackers and lived across the street. There was also some inquiry because, IIRC, he gave them a computer that had a flight simulator installed. This entire time the US Government knew it and covered it up and instead blamed Iran, Iraq, et cetera

tsol 4y ago

So they put confirm in quotes because it isn't actually confirmed. It is rather suspicious, but as stated >Zelikow, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, told Insider he's skeptical that Bayoumi knew about the plot, or that he was working for Saudi intelligence. Many high-ranking Saudis, Zelikow pointed out, were despised by bin Laden and opposed to his efforts. "The information that Bayoumi might have been a paid informant ... if it is true, actually tends to cut the other way," Zelikow said — suggesting that Bayoumi would have been working against the hijackers. >Zelikow, for his part, remains skeptical. He suggested that the drawing and calculations might be related to Bayoumi's work with the Saudi Civil Aviation Authority. "It is possible that someone working in civil aviation might have worked on such equations, for various reasons," he said. So still unconfirmed, more of a clickbait title than incontrovertible proof

ne38 4y ago

faire faire is verb in french which comes from latin bar bar This is what usa dondon to ksa