8 ms·

For some reason I got my hands on George Orwell's "Animal Farm" at a very young age, as it looked like a kid's book. That's a fairly bleak book, for example wh

For some reason I got my hands on George Orwell's "Animal Farm" at a very young age, as it looked like a kid's book. That's a fairly bleak book, for example when the pigs sell the draft horse to the glue factory, but only the goat (whose only friend is the horse) knows what's going on. Watership Down is another good one, the character of the Black Rabbit of Inle (the Grim Reaper of rabbitkind) was memorable. However I disagree with claims that these kind of works 'traumatize' young readers. It's just an introduction to life's realities - everyone has to die, nature is beautiful but also violent, and humans can be crueler to each other than any animal ever could. Kids aren't traumatized by reading, or by playing video games - if trauma occurs, it's due to things like war and poverty and neglect and abuse.

fsloth 5y ago
I read the Animal Farm to my below K12 kids on one sitting and they were hooked. Kids needs scary stories in a safe environment. This will help them process these thoughts and prepare them for the inevitable trauma they will face at some point in their life. Animal Farm is also not a bleak read but also fun as you can do all the animal voices with their characteristic animal sounds.
- TaupeRanger 5y ago
  Stories don't prepare kids for trauma, and I don't think there's any real evidence in support of that idea. I would wager a large sum that a child who has heard scary stories is not more likely to better handle, say, the loss of an immediate family member, than a child who has only heard happy stories about unicorns, rainbows, and friendly interactions.
  - r3trohack3r 5y ago
    Not commenting on whether you’re right or wrong, but that’s a bit of an apples and oranges comparison there - nearly to the point of arguing in bad faith. A more apt comparison might be a story about urban war where the main character looses many immediate family members (and explores the grieving process against the backdrop of the war) - and how that would help a kid process the loss of an immediate family member.
    - tragictrash 5y ago
      Don't be afraid, they're wrong.
      - TaupeRanger 5y ago
        List a single shred of scientific evidence showing that kids who are exposed to stories with similar themes to traumatic events they experience in real life are more likely the have better outcomes. Be afraid to call someone wrong without more than just-so stories and anecdotes.
        ubercore 5y ago
        Do you have a source to claim the opposite?
        TaupeRanger 5y ago
        Of course not. I'm simply saying that I'm very skeptical of the claim and would bet actual money that the opposite (or null result) was actually true.
        tragictrash 5y ago
        You got too much time on your hands. Please stop wasting other people's.
        hervature 5y ago
        This is a form of McNamara's fallacy. In reality, the data you are looking for is impossible to obtain. In practice, causing traumatic events is obviously unethical. Then, even if you had a proper study, there would be so many confounding factors that basically any conclusion is worthless. For instance, listening to an e-book on the subway is obviously different than discussing your emotions and response to the book. From first principles, it seems rather intuitive that if you expose anyone to a story of a trauma and discuss possible coping mechanisms, then that person is better prepared to cope with that trauma. Of course, being exposed to the thought might be traumatic itself (a kid might come to the realization that their dog is actually going to die) but if they react so poorly to the thought, how would they have reacted to the actual event? Intuitively, much worse. I'm all for data driven decisions, but our shared human experience can be a tremendous guiding light for things that are difficult to quantify.
  - tragictrash 5y ago
    Stories definitely do help kids and adults process trauma. I'm not going to go searching for it because you can cherry pick anything off the internet, but it's well documented that scary stories in a safe space assist children with processing traumatic events.
    - TaupeRanger 5y ago
      It's not well documented. It is simply assumed by adults who likely don't know whether it's true or not.
  - inanutshellus 5y ago
    Stories create plans and set expectations. Take the "story" of "if we get separated at the mall, meet at the fountain and wait there until we all arrive." That's a story. You can imagine how it goes. 1. Imagine getting lost. Oh no, oh dear, sweaty palms! But hey, I'm not actually lost. No need to panic. Ok, now what? 2. I should actively work to remember the path back to the fountain. Now, when your five-year-old brain realizes you got separated from daddy, you're not FREAKING OUT you're backtracking to the fountain and thumb-twiddling. Your turn - all you have to do is come up with an edge case ("I'm sure there are some kids that'd forget where the fountain was") and pretend that "some" is statistically more relevant than the idea that making a plan makes a positive difference.
  - ohreallyhmmm 5y ago
    I see that you are talking about exposure to negative stimuli (bad stories) having no demonstrable positive impact to individuals. Perhaps this helps: Psychology has examined the impact of lots of praise (the absence of negative stimuli - e.g not allowing criticism of others, getting a 14th place ribbon) on an individual, vs those that are given critical feedback (negative stimuli is provided and/or no positive stimuli is provided e.g no ribbon or “good job” for 14th place; being excluded from the running team due to poor performance etc) for at least the past 30 years. The overall conclusion of this research is that lots of praise is a problem, and fosters the development of narcissism and leads to poor outcomes when the individual experiences “real” results (e.g they got a high five for getting a “c grade” in high school, but in their workplace performance review they get a “meets expectations” and a verbal warning from their boss that if they don’t improve they will be put on a Performance Improvement Plan). Lots of this research can be read if you look for the impact of developing high self-esteem in individuals (typically this is done as described above), and measuring the impact of these actions. Example paper here: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1111/1529-1006.01431 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1111/1529-1006.0143...
  - fsloth 5y ago
    I was generally chasing the thought that reading to your kids is always good for them. Even scary stories, as long as they are don't cause too much anxiety. By trauma I was not implying "the worst thing that can happen to a person" - just bad things in general which will happen anyway. From my personal experience strategies and coping mechanisms inspired by stories may provide true insights and help in formulating actionable strategies in novel situations. But I can't prove it as other pointed out. My intent was not to claim terrifying stories will inoculate a person from terror, despair, loss or anguish.
dimitrios1 5y ago
This is only true if the young ones in question are in a psychologically safe and emotionally supportive environment. I read things as a young child, without having the support to talk and parse them out, and additionally on top of the chaotic environment I was already in, where reading things like Animal Farm, or, specifically in my case, being introduced to the concept of destructive extinction events in books, movies, and magazines caused much trauma. I had a year where I didn't sleep well, until I could finally convince myself that aliens weren't going to get me in the shower, and that a giant meteor wasn't going to collide with earth any time soon (yet, at least).
- renewiltord 5y ago
  I was 11 when I read All Quiet on the Western Front and maybe 13 when I read Innocent Erendira. I don’t remember talking to anyone about these, though I did feel terrible for a few days after. Honestly, no lasting effects. This is probably the same as the fact that 70% of soldiers experiencing combat stress do not get PTSD and 30% experiencing severe combat stress don’t either. This means human variability is significant. So it’s a question of whether you want to roll the dice. I think I’ll want to permit the autonomy for my children but it’s entirely possible they’ll be in the susceptible set and be damaged.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Do you have any evidence that there is a susceptible set? Books especially fiction come with two fundamental safety features. Firstly the book never subjects itself upon its reader. The reader is always in absolute control. Secondly the fundamental unreality of the setting allows one to dismiss it. I recall observing with morbid curiosity a video of someone losing their life to a terrorist many years ago thinking it would be no different than a gory movie. I was very very wrong. It isn't the realism of the simulation that matters its the inability to dismiss what one knows is in fact real.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      I have no evidence that there is a susceptible set. That's a "maybe you're right" statement.
nsomaru 5y ago
Small nitpick, cynical old Benjamin was a donkey not a goat. “He would say that God had given him a tail to keep the flies off, but that he would sooner have had no tail and no flies.”
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bsenftner 5y ago
I was a fat, stuttering early elementary kid, so I read a lot to avoid the cruel other kids. To the degree my 4th grade teacher would no longer allow me to do book reports for a grade using children's or teen books any longer. She pointed me at the literature classics and said only those were grade worthy at my reading skill. The right there was on of the most instrumental decisions of my life. By 5th grade I'd read the entire high school literature section. I joined an adult book readers club to better understand what I was reading. Even the adults in my club agreed an adult life is continual situational ignorance, misunderstood tragedy, betrayal by those close to you, and servitude to the powerful. I no longer believe adult life is quite so harsh, but that attitude prepared me far better than my peers. I've spent a good amount of time talking down people ready to quit everything. Thankfully, I can reference some fantastic hopeful passages, and they have not failed such situations yet.
- NortySpock 5y ago
  Can you share some hopeful passages, or some recommendations on what to read? I could use a bit of positivity in my life this month.
  - bsenftner 5y ago
    Without your personal context, recommendations are difficult. If you like science fiction, check out "Stories of your Life" by Ted Chang; if you like historical strategies for success, check out "The 48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene; if you like grand philosophical views of an entire life well lived and how to have one "The Glass Bead Game" by Hesse; if you're interested in extremely practical advice in how to be successful today read (believe it or not) Harvard Business Review - it is far more down to earth than should be possible. If you like cynical SciFi, read Philip K Dick's Valis trilogy - it's a failed 2nd coming of god, wreaked by modern brand marketing.
    - js2 5y ago
      Have you read Klara and the Sun yet?
idleproc 5y ago
I remember watching the Watership Down film as a young child and being rather disturbed. I think it set me up well for watching Nightmare on Elm Street when I was about 9 though. However, I've turned into a fairly well rounded individual (I don't try to murder rabbits or children in their dreams at least). The only downside is that I don't find horror films or rabbits particularly interesting. Something recently made me think of Moses the raven though.
colechristensen 5y ago
Quite a lot of adult mental illness can be attributed to being overly sheltered as a child… your brain wires itself to expect the environment it grew up in and when the adult world is substantially different the result is often mental illness.
verisimi 5y ago
> However I disagree with claims that these kind of works 'traumatize' young readers. Yes, the trauma occurs when you realise how misled you were about the nature of reality, that you were sold a lie.
- 6510 5y ago
  I'm still traumatized by animal farm.
WalterBright 5y ago
I once asked my dad why people who committed treason against the king in medieval times were treated so cruelly. He said that live was nasty, brutish and short in those days, and to make an impact and a deterrence the king had to be over the top cruel. I don't know how true that is, as I suspect there's a large element of people just liking to be cruel if they have the opportunity. I have a couple books on the cruelties done by armies in WW2, and in the American west, and could not finish reading them.
kndjckt 5y ago
As a kid I watched the film a bunch. It was scary but I liked it. Worth checking out. Amazing that it's from 1954 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047834/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047834/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
hemloc_io 5y ago
Yep read animal farm in middle school and it was dope. (Along with Brave New World + Naked lunch which IMO is a bit racier) One of my favorite things about the internet when I was younger was that it let me find books I couldn't get without begging my parents haha. Adults really underestimate how resilient kids are, and how much media isn't able to approximate the real world (yet). Modern ppl really don't realize how dark lots of older child stories are, like the brother's grimm etc, and that kids used to be taken to executions. EDIT: over -> under.
- Digit-Al 5y ago
  I think you mean they underestimate how resilient kids are.
  - hemloc_io 5y ago
    Fixed thanks :)
boringg 5y ago
Should also lump in Metamorphosis into this category of bleak but fascinating stories.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
billfruit 5y ago
Another one might be "Lord of the Flies", it really has spine chilling moments.
AlphaOne1 5y ago
I wonder if there is a difference between oral stories and movies. My kids started to cry while watching the Little Dinosaur (ages 5 and under) several months ago. I recently bought a copy of the uncensored Brother Grim stories. Taking into account how sensitive they have been in the past with G rated cartoons, I decided I would edit the stories in real time (leaving out words like 'blood') and sometimes modify the ending slightly. Recently, I stopped editing the stories. My kids still love the stories and ask me to read them more right before bed time. They even asked me to re-read them Hansel and Gretel, which is quite a brutal tale in my opinion. Show them a single clip of a 'sad/scary' cartoon and they still freak out to this day; however. I think there is something to be said about Disney cartoons use of music and visual images that sort of forces viewers into a certain emotional mindset. Oral stories/books on the other hand leave it up to the imagination of the listener to conger up the emotions and images. Not sure if this makes sense, but at least in the case of my kids it does.
irrational 5y ago
Reminds me of all the adults freaking out about kids being traumatized by wearing masks. Kids don’t care. For them it was like putting on pants. Not a big deal unless the adults around them make it into a big deal.

fsloth 5y ago

I read the Animal Farm to my below K12 kids on one sitting and they were hooked. Kids needs scary stories in a safe environment. This will help them process these thoughts and prepare them for the inevitable trauma they will face at some point in their life. Animal Farm is also not a bleak read but also fun as you can do all the animal voices with their characteristic animal sounds.

TaupeRanger 5y ago
Stories don't prepare kids for trauma, and I don't think there's any real evidence in support of that idea. I would wager a large sum that a child who has heard scary stories is not more likely to better handle, say, the loss of an immediate family member, than a child who has only heard happy stories about unicorns, rainbows, and friendly interactions.
- r3trohack3r 5y ago
  Not commenting on whether you’re right or wrong, but that’s a bit of an apples and oranges comparison there - nearly to the point of arguing in bad faith. A more apt comparison might be a story about urban war where the main character looses many immediate family members (and explores the grieving process against the backdrop of the war) - and how that would help a kid process the loss of an immediate family member.
  - tragictrash 5y ago
    Don't be afraid, they're wrong.
    - TaupeRanger 5y ago
      List a single shred of scientific evidence showing that kids who are exposed to stories with similar themes to traumatic events they experience in real life are more likely the have better outcomes. Be afraid to call someone wrong without more than just-so stories and anecdotes.
      - ubercore 5y ago
        Do you have a source to claim the opposite?
        TaupeRanger 5y ago
        Of course not. I'm simply saying that I'm very skeptical of the claim and would bet actual money that the opposite (or null result) was actually true.
        tragictrash 5y ago
        You got too much time on your hands. Please stop wasting other people's.
      - hervature 5y ago
        This is a form of McNamara's fallacy. In reality, the data you are looking for is impossible to obtain. In practice, causing traumatic events is obviously unethical. Then, even if you had a proper study, there would be so many confounding factors that basically any conclusion is worthless. For instance, listening to an e-book on the subway is obviously different than discussing your emotions and response to the book. From first principles, it seems rather intuitive that if you expose anyone to a story of a trauma and discuss possible coping mechanisms, then that person is better prepared to cope with that trauma. Of course, being exposed to the thought might be traumatic itself (a kid might come to the realization that their dog is actually going to die) but if they react so poorly to the thought, how would they have reacted to the actual event? Intuitively, much worse. I'm all for data driven decisions, but our shared human experience can be a tremendous guiding light for things that are difficult to quantify.
- tragictrash 5y ago
  Stories definitely do help kids and adults process trauma. I'm not going to go searching for it because you can cherry pick anything off the internet, but it's well documented that scary stories in a safe space assist children with processing traumatic events.
  - TaupeRanger 5y ago
    It's not well documented. It is simply assumed by adults who likely don't know whether it's true or not.
- inanutshellus 5y ago
  Stories create plans and set expectations. Take the "story" of "if we get separated at the mall, meet at the fountain and wait there until we all arrive." That's a story. You can imagine how it goes. 1. Imagine getting lost. Oh no, oh dear, sweaty palms! But hey, I'm not actually lost. No need to panic. Ok, now what? 2. I should actively work to remember the path back to the fountain. Now, when your five-year-old brain realizes you got separated from daddy, you're not FREAKING OUT you're backtracking to the fountain and thumb-twiddling. Your turn - all you have to do is come up with an edge case ("I'm sure there are some kids that'd forget where the fountain was") and pretend that "some" is statistically more relevant than the idea that making a plan makes a positive difference.
- ohreallyhmmm 5y ago
  I see that you are talking about exposure to negative stimuli (bad stories) having no demonstrable positive impact to individuals. Perhaps this helps: Psychology has examined the impact of lots of praise (the absence of negative stimuli - e.g not allowing criticism of others, getting a 14th place ribbon) on an individual, vs those that are given critical feedback (negative stimuli is provided and/or no positive stimuli is provided e.g no ribbon or “good job” for 14th place; being excluded from the running team due to poor performance etc) for at least the past 30 years. The overall conclusion of this research is that lots of praise is a problem, and fosters the development of narcissism and leads to poor outcomes when the individual experiences “real” results (e.g they got a high five for getting a “c grade” in high school, but in their workplace performance review they get a “meets expectations” and a verbal warning from their boss that if they don’t improve they will be put on a Performance Improvement Plan). Lots of this research can be read if you look for the impact of developing high self-esteem in individuals (typically this is done as described above), and measuring the impact of these actions. Example paper here: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1111/1529-1006.01431 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1111/1529-1006.0143...
- fsloth 5y ago
  I was generally chasing the thought that reading to your kids is always good for them. Even scary stories, as long as they are don't cause too much anxiety. By trauma I was not implying "the worst thing that can happen to a person" - just bad things in general which will happen anyway. From my personal experience strategies and coping mechanisms inspired by stories may provide true insights and help in formulating actionable strategies in novel situations. But I can't prove it as other pointed out. My intent was not to claim terrifying stories will inoculate a person from terror, despair, loss or anguish.

dimitrios1 5y ago

This is only true if the young ones in question are in a psychologically safe and emotionally supportive environment. I read things as a young child, without having the support to talk and parse them out, and additionally on top of the chaotic environment I was already in, where reading things like Animal Farm, or, specifically in my case, being introduced to the concept of destructive extinction events in books, movies, and magazines caused much trauma. I had a year where I didn't sleep well, until I could finally convince myself that aliens weren't going to get me in the shower, and that a giant meteor wasn't going to collide with earth any time soon (yet, at least).

renewiltord 5y ago
I was 11 when I read All Quiet on the Western Front and maybe 13 when I read Innocent Erendira. I don’t remember talking to anyone about these, though I did feel terrible for a few days after. Honestly, no lasting effects. This is probably the same as the fact that 70% of soldiers experiencing combat stress do not get PTSD and 30% experiencing severe combat stress don’t either. This means human variability is significant. So it’s a question of whether you want to roll the dice. I think I’ll want to permit the autonomy for my children but it’s entirely possible they’ll be in the susceptible set and be damaged.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Do you have any evidence that there is a susceptible set? Books especially fiction come with two fundamental safety features. Firstly the book never subjects itself upon its reader. The reader is always in absolute control. Secondly the fundamental unreality of the setting allows one to dismiss it. I recall observing with morbid curiosity a video of someone losing their life to a terrorist many years ago thinking it would be no different than a gory movie. I was very very wrong. It isn't the realism of the simulation that matters its the inability to dismiss what one knows is in fact real.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    I have no evidence that there is a susceptible set. That's a "maybe you're right" statement.

nsomaru 5y ago

Small nitpick, cynical old Benjamin was a donkey not a goat. “He would say that God had given him a tail to keep the flies off, but that he would sooner have had no tail and no flies.”

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bsenftner 5y ago

I was a fat, stuttering early elementary kid, so I read a lot to avoid the cruel other kids. To the degree my 4th grade teacher would no longer allow me to do book reports for a grade using children's or teen books any longer. She pointed me at the literature classics and said only those were grade worthy at my reading skill. The right there was on of the most instrumental decisions of my life. By 5th grade I'd read the entire high school literature section. I joined an adult book readers club to better understand what I was reading. Even the adults in my club agreed an adult life is continual situational ignorance, misunderstood tragedy, betrayal by those close to you, and servitude to the powerful. I no longer believe adult life is quite so harsh, but that attitude prepared me far better than my peers. I've spent a good amount of time talking down people ready to quit everything. Thankfully, I can reference some fantastic hopeful passages, and they have not failed such situations yet.

NortySpock 5y ago
Can you share some hopeful passages, or some recommendations on what to read? I could use a bit of positivity in my life this month.
- bsenftner 5y ago
  Without your personal context, recommendations are difficult. If you like science fiction, check out "Stories of your Life" by Ted Chang; if you like historical strategies for success, check out "The 48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene; if you like grand philosophical views of an entire life well lived and how to have one "The Glass Bead Game" by Hesse; if you're interested in extremely practical advice in how to be successful today read (believe it or not) Harvard Business Review - it is far more down to earth than should be possible. If you like cynical SciFi, read Philip K Dick's Valis trilogy - it's a failed 2nd coming of god, wreaked by modern brand marketing.
  - js2 5y ago
    Have you read Klara and the Sun yet?

idleproc 5y ago

I remember watching the Watership Down film as a young child and being rather disturbed. I think it set me up well for watching Nightmare on Elm Street when I was about 9 though. However, I've turned into a fairly well rounded individual (I don't try to murder rabbits or children in their dreams at least). The only downside is that I don't find horror films or rabbits particularly interesting. Something recently made me think of Moses the raven though.

colechristensen 5y ago

Quite a lot of adult mental illness can be attributed to being overly sheltered as a child… your brain wires itself to expect the environment it grew up in and when the adult world is substantially different the result is often mental illness.

verisimi 5y ago

> However I disagree with claims that these kind of works 'traumatize' young readers. Yes, the trauma occurs when you realise how misled you were about the nature of reality, that you were sold a lie.

6510 5y ago
I'm still traumatized by animal farm.

WalterBright 5y ago

I once asked my dad why people who committed treason against the king in medieval times were treated so cruelly. He said that live was nasty, brutish and short in those days, and to make an impact and a deterrence the king had to be over the top cruel. I don't know how true that is, as I suspect there's a large element of people just liking to be cruel if they have the opportunity. I have a couple books on the cruelties done by armies in WW2, and in the American west, and could not finish reading them.

kndjckt 5y ago

As a kid I watched the film a bunch. It was scary but I liked it. Worth checking out. Amazing that it's from 1954 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047834/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047834/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

hemloc_io 5y ago

Yep read animal farm in middle school and it was dope. (Along with Brave New World + Naked lunch which IMO is a bit racier) One of my favorite things about the internet when I was younger was that it let me find books I couldn't get without begging my parents haha. Adults really underestimate how resilient kids are, and how much media isn't able to approximate the real world (yet). Modern ppl really don't realize how dark lots of older child stories are, like the brother's grimm etc, and that kids used to be taken to executions. EDIT: over -> under.

Digit-Al 5y ago
I think you mean they underestimate how resilient kids are.
- hemloc_io 5y ago
  Fixed thanks :)

boringg 5y ago

Should also lump in Metamorphosis into this category of bleak but fascinating stories.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

billfruit 5y ago

Another one might be "Lord of the Flies", it really has spine chilling moments.

AlphaOne1 5y ago

I wonder if there is a difference between oral stories and movies. My kids started to cry while watching the Little Dinosaur (ages 5 and under) several months ago. I recently bought a copy of the uncensored Brother Grim stories. Taking into account how sensitive they have been in the past with G rated cartoons, I decided I would edit the stories in real time (leaving out words like 'blood') and sometimes modify the ending slightly. Recently, I stopped editing the stories. My kids still love the stories and ask me to read them more right before bed time. They even asked me to re-read them Hansel and Gretel, which is quite a brutal tale in my opinion. Show them a single clip of a 'sad/scary' cartoon and they still freak out to this day; however. I think there is something to be said about Disney cartoons use of music and visual images that sort of forces viewers into a certain emotional mindset. Oral stories/books on the other hand leave it up to the imagination of the listener to conger up the emotions and images. Not sure if this makes sense, but at least in the case of my kids it does.

irrational 5y ago

Reminds me of all the adults freaking out about kids being traumatized by wearing masks. Kids don’t care. For them it was like putting on pants. Not a big deal unless the adults around them make it into a big deal.