7 ms·

With such a huge investment comes the obligation to eventually pay it back. Is this another one of my favourite tools going the way of Dropbox, 1Password and al

by pilif 4y ago

With such a huge investment comes the obligation to eventually pay it back. Is this another one of my favourite tools going the way of Dropbox, 1Password and all other companies that were formed around what should be a platform feature, which took on way too large investment sums and were eventually forced to become the everything, losing sight of their core values? I sincerely hope not, but there's so much bad precedent.

gowld 4y ago
> should be a platform feature OK, but it's not. Now what? Do we just live without until the platform overlords provide it, or does someone build it on top of the platform? What even is the "platform", when my Android phone is connecting to my iPad and my Windows laptop and Linux desktop and Amazon cloud server? $100M = ~$0.20 / computer user in US and western Europe (wealthy countries in connected software markets)
Lightbody 4y ago
I haven't really felt like 1Password's product materially strayed from the original mission. If anything, I'm even more delighted with the team functionality, shared vaults, quick keyboard access in 1Password 8, etc. I wouldn't put them in the Dropbox bucket. Also, I think the value Tailscale provides is fairly unique and far from obviously a platform feature like file storage and perhaps even password management.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  Indeed, 1Password is practically a utility at this point, as far as I'm concerned. I really like the direction they're heading and they're solving some pretty tricky problems without compromising on security, predominantly in the enterprise domain. The experience is the same regardless of whether you're an enterprise user or a personal or family user. It's polished enough that my grandma can use it.
  - alberth 4y ago
    > I really like the direction [1Password] is heading I thought customers were complainingly loudly against their new direction of making 1Password an Electron app. Is that not the case? Note: I'm not a 1Password customer.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I heard some people complaining a bit for a moment when they made the transition, but that happens anytime anyone changes anything and doubly so when that change is Electron. But that faded quickly.
      - mmcclure 4y ago
        I...don't think it's faded. I could totally be wrong here, but I don't think they'd actually made a transition yet; the complaining you're talking about was over the 1Password 8 beta. That actually just went GA this week, and people were still upset. I get why they're doing it (or, at least, think I do), and I'm not angry enough to go get angry on Twitter, but I am going to avoid the upgrade for as long as I can. That's kind of a bummer to get there with a product you've historically really liked.
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        Honestly I haven't noticed and I use 1Password on all of my devices every day. I heard some grumblings about 1Password changing to electron months ago and just assumed that they already made the transition. In whatever case, I haven't heard a peep until this thread. I don't like electron in theory and the industry should collectively come up with a solution that incentivizes app developers away from electron rather than hoping they swim against the current of incentive.
        skoskie 4y ago
        You might double check which version you’re on. Might still be on v7. > the industry should collectively come up with a solution that incentivizes app developers away from electron rather than hoping they swim against the current of incentive. They have the financial resources to build it in ~Rust but still chose electron. It’s a mind boggling decision.
- nikanj 4y ago
  It's been [0] days since the last time 1Password randomly bombarded me with a "Upgrade to 1Password subscription today" dialog. Not talking about the banner in the corner of the app. this was a dialog that had to specifically be dismissed
- _ktx2 4y ago
  1Password went from being buy once upgrade forever to SaaS. A lot of folks bought back when that was the package (and business model) so it's viewed relatively negatively here from some folks. I don't blame them, but also, I think 1Password is a success. I just don't think they'd have been viable under their original business model.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    But is "buy once, upgrade forever" really a viable long term business model?
    - samhw 4y ago
      I dunno, but you ought to figure it out (for your business) before you make that offer!
      - skinnymuch 4y ago
        Why? 1PW is succeeding. They didn’t do some huge moral quandary either that would make stopping the one time buying product a moral failing. People like the first commenter and myself have used 1PW for many years too and are fine with what has gone down. Vs a clear moral screw up like the big tech companies colluding to not hire one another’s employees.
        samhw 4y ago
        If they said "buy once, get upgrades forever" and didn't provide that, then yeah, that's definitely a very plain example of immoral dealing. The future service is exactly what the purchasers were buying - not a nice-to-have add-on.
    - deadbunny 4y ago
      Seemed to work for a lot software before SaaS ate the world. But who wants viable when you can bleed you customers for 10-1000x the would have paid for the software once? /s
  - 4y ago
- prepend 4y ago
  I think they changed from their mission to make password management easy and secure to extracting service fees forever. I don’t necessarily blame them but think their decision was pushed along by the need for big money. For example, I think they’d still be able to do the pay once model if they abstracted they storage to work with Dropbox/icloud/OneDrive/whatever. There’s really no value add as a user for a monthly fee. Although lots of people don’t mind. I’d rather not pay for something as essential and simple as a synchronized, encrypted data blob. I literally replaced it with a Google doc and cutting and pasting more. A filter over Google docs does not require a monthly fee. I have this problem with lots of SaaS products that could be software if they didn’t want or need lots of money.
  - nicknow 4y ago
    > For example, I think they’d still be able to do the pay once model if they abstracted they storage to work with Dropbox/icloud/OneDrive/whatever. I get why they don't but I often wish more SaaS companies had a bring your own computer & storage model. It doesn't make sense for 95% of customers and the 5% of us who might like it and have the tech chops to use it would just complain about having to pay more because we are outliers. But I wish it was offered!
    - prepend 4y ago
      It makes sense because they make less money that way. It seems like they have some cognitive dissonance where they try to explain their SaaS fee because of the “features” that require SaaS. If they supported bring your own storage then that cuts out the main reason for the SaaS fees. Also sad because bring your own storage is more secure to me than trusting a company with all of my passwords. So they are reducing security and increasing price.
- biohax2015 4y ago
  1Password is a phenomenal product. Idk what HN's obsession with ragging on it is about.
- girvo 4y ago
  I found 1Passwords UI/UX and development tooling choices... not ideal, as of 1P v8. I miss the native apps, and the latest iOS app/integration had far too many bugs initially (I just use autofill alone now, on my iPhone. Not ideal, but good enough)
YPPH 4y ago
How has 1Password lost sight of its core values? Perhaps you refer to loss of local vaults? If so, they were never really a viable option for me - I needed the app syncing across multiple devices, including mobile, and doing so with a third party sync solution wasn't suitable.
- criddell 4y ago
  For me, it was their switch to an Electron app. "High security" and "built from dozens of third party libraries and running on a browser" don't belong together.
  - YPPH 4y ago
    The choice of tech stack for a desktop application seems like an interesting basis to claim a company has lost touch with its core values.
    - smilespray 4y ago
      Moving from a native app to an Electron-based one has a definitive impact on usability. Calling it a tech stack choice is a bit dismissive. They used to have a kick-ass Mac app. That appealed to a considerable amount of their users. Then they ditched the native app for Electron, and those same users were disappointed.
      - dcow 4y ago
        Which functionality was removed by switch stacks? What is the actual usability impact? I currently use 1Password7 and haven't updated to 8 so I'd like to know before updating.
    - skoskie 4y ago
      I’m fully in the camp who believes critical, top-level security should not co-exist with npm pulling dozens of 3rd party libraries which each pull even more 4th party code. Is there anyone here with a counter argument? Has a security review been performed on each dependency? Any reason to think my fear is unfounded?
oicU00 4y ago
It’s a basic web UX over a built in Linux kernel feature There are Docker containerized apps that manage Wireguard too Maybe contribute to one and fret less about behavior of VC funded business and wondering if they’re actually respecting your privacy to accomplish finance goals
- shepherdjerred 4y ago
  It handles a lot more than that, right? It does all of the key distribution and rotation which is a pain.
  - oicU00 4y ago
    If they can do it it’s not impossible (they’re just people after all). With an open source implementation out there, anyone can do it merely pulling a Docker container, and without paying Tailscale. Regardless I manage a dozen users with no issue using Embarks container; once they’re setup I touch nothing. Paying people is not working with people; it’s working with a specific group. Open source is working with people.
    - shepherdjerred 4y ago
      I haven't payed them a penny despite using their product for a while. And now that I've realized this, I've signed up for their personal pro plan.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - samhw 4y ago
      If the open source implementation is equally good, I'm sure people will use that instead of Tailscale. That Tailscale exists makes me suspect that the open source implementation - as is usually the case with these "just use curlftpfs!" comments – is not equally good. The reality is that making software, like any other human endeavour, takes time and energy. Paying one another money is a rather well-established mechanism of rewarding and incentivising that time and energy (since not everyone wants to work free of charge to make and maintain software for you, out of the goodness of their hearts, no matter how much you insist that you're owed their unpaid labour). There are small and local means of getting free food, or free woodworking, etc, but the general reality is that a high-quality high-dependency maintained product, over the long term, is more feasible when it's paid.
ramraj07 4y ago
Dropbox has been fine ish? Like not stellar but it’s still something I use as one of my core tools and pay for.
- skoskie 4y ago
  Ditto, but the fact that they still can’t handle more than ~300k files is a long-standing problem they have yet to solve. I have close to a million syncing files and startup time for the app takes about 20 minutes on a brand new MBP, and CPU and overall energy usage is ridiculously high. All while they keep pushing me to backup more files. I pay over $700/ yr for their business plan and would like to have better performance for it.
  - kbumsik 4y ago
    Really? I have more than 1000k files and I have never faced issues for more than 7 years.
IceWreck 4y ago
Even if it does go away, youre not loosing anything. Its functionality can be replicated with a USD 5 VPS using Slack's nebula (not wireguard based) or any wireguard based tool like headscale, innernet, netmaker or plain old wireguard.

by pilif 4y ago

gowld 4y ago

> should be a platform feature OK, but it's not. Now what? Do we just live without until the platform overlords provide it, or does someone build it on top of the platform? What even is the "platform", when my Android phone is connecting to my iPad and my Windows laptop and Linux desktop and Amazon cloud server? $100M = ~$0.20 / computer user in US and western Europe (wealthy countries in connected software markets)

Lightbody 4y ago

I haven't really felt like 1Password's product materially strayed from the original mission. If anything, I'm even more delighted with the team functionality, shared vaults, quick keyboard access in 1Password 8, etc. I wouldn't put them in the Dropbox bucket. Also, I think the value Tailscale provides is fairly unique and far from obviously a platform feature like file storage and perhaps even password management.

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
Indeed, 1Password is practically a utility at this point, as far as I'm concerned. I really like the direction they're heading and they're solving some pretty tricky problems without compromising on security, predominantly in the enterprise domain. The experience is the same regardless of whether you're an enterprise user or a personal or family user. It's polished enough that my grandma can use it.
- alberth 4y ago
  > I really like the direction [1Password] is heading I thought customers were complainingly loudly against their new direction of making 1Password an Electron app. Is that not the case? Note: I'm not a 1Password customer.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I heard some people complaining a bit for a moment when they made the transition, but that happens anytime anyone changes anything and doubly so when that change is Electron. But that faded quickly.
    - mmcclure 4y ago
      I...don't think it's faded. I could totally be wrong here, but I don't think they'd actually made a transition yet; the complaining you're talking about was over the 1Password 8 beta. That actually just went GA this week, and people were still upset. I get why they're doing it (or, at least, think I do), and I'm not angry enough to go get angry on Twitter, but I am going to avoid the upgrade for as long as I can. That's kind of a bummer to get there with a product you've historically really liked.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        Honestly I haven't noticed and I use 1Password on all of my devices every day. I heard some grumblings about 1Password changing to electron months ago and just assumed that they already made the transition. In whatever case, I haven't heard a peep until this thread. I don't like electron in theory and the industry should collectively come up with a solution that incentivizes app developers away from electron rather than hoping they swim against the current of incentive.
        skoskie 4y ago
        You might double check which version you’re on. Might still be on v7. > the industry should collectively come up with a solution that incentivizes app developers away from electron rather than hoping they swim against the current of incentive. They have the financial resources to build it in ~Rust but still chose electron. It’s a mind boggling decision.
nikanj 4y ago
It's been [0] days since the last time 1Password randomly bombarded me with a "Upgrade to 1Password subscription today" dialog. Not talking about the banner in the corner of the app. this was a dialog that had to specifically be dismissed
_ktx2 4y ago
1Password went from being buy once upgrade forever to SaaS. A lot of folks bought back when that was the package (and business model) so it's viewed relatively negatively here from some folks. I don't blame them, but also, I think 1Password is a success. I just don't think they'd have been viable under their original business model.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  But is "buy once, upgrade forever" really a viable long term business model?
  - samhw 4y ago
    I dunno, but you ought to figure it out (for your business) before you make that offer!
    - skinnymuch 4y ago
      Why? 1PW is succeeding. They didn’t do some huge moral quandary either that would make stopping the one time buying product a moral failing. People like the first commenter and myself have used 1PW for many years too and are fine with what has gone down. Vs a clear moral screw up like the big tech companies colluding to not hire one another’s employees.
      - samhw 4y ago
        If they said "buy once, get upgrades forever" and didn't provide that, then yeah, that's definitely a very plain example of immoral dealing. The future service is exactly what the purchasers were buying - not a nice-to-have add-on.
  - deadbunny 4y ago
    Seemed to work for a lot software before SaaS ate the world. But who wants viable when you can bleed you customers for 10-1000x the would have paid for the software once? /s
- 4y ago
prepend 4y ago
I think they changed from their mission to make password management easy and secure to extracting service fees forever. I don’t necessarily blame them but think their decision was pushed along by the need for big money. For example, I think they’d still be able to do the pay once model if they abstracted they storage to work with Dropbox/icloud/OneDrive/whatever. There’s really no value add as a user for a monthly fee. Although lots of people don’t mind. I’d rather not pay for something as essential and simple as a synchronized, encrypted data blob. I literally replaced it with a Google doc and cutting and pasting more. A filter over Google docs does not require a monthly fee. I have this problem with lots of SaaS products that could be software if they didn’t want or need lots of money.
- nicknow 4y ago
  > For example, I think they’d still be able to do the pay once model if they abstracted they storage to work with Dropbox/icloud/OneDrive/whatever. I get why they don't but I often wish more SaaS companies had a bring your own computer & storage model. It doesn't make sense for 95% of customers and the 5% of us who might like it and have the tech chops to use it would just complain about having to pay more because we are outliers. But I wish it was offered!
  - prepend 4y ago
    It makes sense because they make less money that way. It seems like they have some cognitive dissonance where they try to explain their SaaS fee because of the “features” that require SaaS. If they supported bring your own storage then that cuts out the main reason for the SaaS fees. Also sad because bring your own storage is more secure to me than trusting a company with all of my passwords. So they are reducing security and increasing price.
biohax2015 4y ago
1Password is a phenomenal product. Idk what HN's obsession with ragging on it is about.
girvo 4y ago
I found 1Passwords UI/UX and development tooling choices... not ideal, as of 1P v8. I miss the native apps, and the latest iOS app/integration had far too many bugs initially (I just use autofill alone now, on my iPhone. Not ideal, but good enough)

YPPH 4y ago

How has 1Password lost sight of its core values? Perhaps you refer to loss of local vaults? If so, they were never really a viable option for me - I needed the app syncing across multiple devices, including mobile, and doing so with a third party sync solution wasn't suitable.

criddell 4y ago
For me, it was their switch to an Electron app. "High security" and "built from dozens of third party libraries and running on a browser" don't belong together.
- YPPH 4y ago
  The choice of tech stack for a desktop application seems like an interesting basis to claim a company has lost touch with its core values.
  - smilespray 4y ago
    Moving from a native app to an Electron-based one has a definitive impact on usability. Calling it a tech stack choice is a bit dismissive. They used to have a kick-ass Mac app. That appealed to a considerable amount of their users. Then they ditched the native app for Electron, and those same users were disappointed.
    - dcow 4y ago
      Which functionality was removed by switch stacks? What is the actual usability impact? I currently use 1Password7 and haven't updated to 8 so I'd like to know before updating.
  - skoskie 4y ago
    I’m fully in the camp who believes critical, top-level security should not co-exist with npm pulling dozens of 3rd party libraries which each pull even more 4th party code. Is there anyone here with a counter argument? Has a security review been performed on each dependency? Any reason to think my fear is unfounded?

oicU00 4y ago

It’s a basic web UX over a built in Linux kernel feature There are Docker containerized apps that manage Wireguard too Maybe contribute to one and fret less about behavior of VC funded business and wondering if they’re actually respecting your privacy to accomplish finance goals

shepherdjerred 4y ago
It handles a lot more than that, right? It does all of the key distribution and rotation which is a pain.
- oicU00 4y ago
  If they can do it it’s not impossible (they’re just people after all). With an open source implementation out there, anyone can do it merely pulling a Docker container, and without paying Tailscale. Regardless I manage a dozen users with no issue using Embarks container; once they’re setup I touch nothing. Paying people is not working with people; it’s working with a specific group. Open source is working with people.
  - shepherdjerred 4y ago
    I haven't payed them a penny despite using their product for a while. And now that I've realized this, I've signed up for their personal pro plan.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - samhw 4y ago
    If the open source implementation is equally good, I'm sure people will use that instead of Tailscale. That Tailscale exists makes me suspect that the open source implementation - as is usually the case with these "just use curlftpfs!" comments – is not equally good. The reality is that making software, like any other human endeavour, takes time and energy. Paying one another money is a rather well-established mechanism of rewarding and incentivising that time and energy (since not everyone wants to work free of charge to make and maintain software for you, out of the goodness of their hearts, no matter how much you insist that you're owed their unpaid labour). There are small and local means of getting free food, or free woodworking, etc, but the general reality is that a high-quality high-dependency maintained product, over the long term, is more feasible when it's paid.

ramraj07 4y ago

Dropbox has been fine ish? Like not stellar but it’s still something I use as one of my core tools and pay for.

skoskie 4y ago
Ditto, but the fact that they still can’t handle more than ~300k files is a long-standing problem they have yet to solve. I have close to a million syncing files and startup time for the app takes about 20 minutes on a brand new MBP, and CPU and overall energy usage is ridiculously high. All while they keep pushing me to backup more files. I pay over $700/ yr for their business plan and would like to have better performance for it.
- kbumsik 4y ago
  Really? I have more than 1000k files and I have never faced issues for more than 7 years.

IceWreck 4y ago

Even if it does go away, youre not loosing anything. Its functionality can be replicated with a USD 5 VPS using Slack's nebula (not wireguard based) or any wireguard based tool like headscale, innernet, netmaker or plain old wireguard.