5 ms·

> The number of people who'd be easily willing to just murder a bunch of people for an invented reason is much greater than elsewhere. > Americans can get 'nat

> The number of people who'd be easily willing to just murder a bunch of people for an invented reason is much greater than elsewhere. > Americans can get 'nationalist' but they are absolutely not like that, beyond a smaller group, Americans are by default positive and gregarious. Americans killed millions, and displaced tens of millions [0] in a "crusade on terror" the consequences of which lasting to this day, for a whole bunch of invented reasons [1] [2] [3]. And that was after the largest protest movement, in human history, literally begged them not to do it [4]. Which is quite a stark contrast to the Russia Ukraine situation; That has been a situation for by now nearly a decade, with Russia being very vocal about its own interests and where it draws the line in term of NATO expansion. All of that was ignored, for years, as Russia's interests were not deemed important, or even worth considering from a Western, and particularly US perspective, that only considered one thing; Steady NATO expansion, steady encroachment on Russia [5]. After literally decades of this [6] the bear is now in the corner, and it's very predictably leashing out, yet most of the West still keeps acting like the bear is irrational for acting like that. Particularly as the West rather wants to peddle the narrative of the expansionist bear who is soon to roll into Berlin, to justify all that NATO expansion.. [0] https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2020/Displacement_Vine%20et%20al_Costs%20of%20War%202020%2009%2008.pdf https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/20... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda_link_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda_li... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein%27s_alleged_shredder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein%27s_alleged_shr... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_prot... [5] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464... [6] https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-out-of-abm-treaty-putin-calls-move-a-mistake.html https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-...

mda 4y ago
I am sorry but this is total bs, nobody cornered Russia.
- sitkack 4y ago
  That is a flippant and simplistic view of the situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lQ-E-7b-Vw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lQ-E-7b-Vw The EU put stipulations on Ukraine, that they could only have free trade status with the EU or Russia but not both. This pulled UA westward at the detriment of Russia. Ukraine had a lower performing, cheaper economy than Russia, free trade status with the EU means that it could have setup factories for rich EU companies. Huge untapped oil and gas deposits were discovered in Ukraine as well, putting Russia's energy dominance over Europe into doubt. With all of their financial eggs in the oil basket and all of that corruption to feed ... We now see the result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union...
  - jollybean 4y ago
    "The EU put stipulations on Ukraine, that they could only have free trade status with the EU or Russia but not both. This pulled UA westward at the detriment of Russia." ? They said the same thing to the UK, and they say the same thing to every country. Do you understand what trade harmonization means ? You can't be part of multiple trade harmonization zones.
    - freeflight 4y ago
      > They said the same thing to the UK They didn't because the UK didn't even have the same problem due to the UK already having been a EU member for a long time, as such it was already tooled for EU market demands. While the Ukrainian economy was very much tooled towards former Soviet markets like Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, those made up 60% of Ukraine's exports in 2013 [0]. Obviously a lot of that fell apart after 2014, instead came IMF bailouts aka loans [1], which have been keeping the Ukrainian economy alive since then, now substituted with additional credits for the weapons some countries are supplying Ukraine. > Do you understand what trade harmonization means ? You can't be part of multiple trade harmonization zones. So you do understand the actual issue? Then why act like it ain't an issue and it's just "Russian propaganda like in the UK!"? [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-russia-ukraine-factbox-idUSBRE9AL0LQ20131122 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-russia-ukraine-factbox... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27233152 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27233152
jollybean 4y ago
1) This is Russian propaganda - either from someone who doesn't understand the situation (i.e. 'Useful Idiocy' as Stalin himself coined the term) - or - arguing in bad faith. It's ironically a very good example of the cynical, authoritarian, toxic 'bad faith' acting by the Russian government, and people. Foreign Minster Lavarov - literally just yesterday, was lambasting Israel for 'supporting the Nazi regime in Ukraine'. The word 'repulsive' isn't strong enough. 'NATO expansion' is - much like the public story of 'WMDs in Iraq' - a canard. It's as stupid as the lie about 'denazification' which Putin is using to justify a genocide. Russia has no real threat from NATO - there is 0% chance of NATO aggression towards Russia, and they know it. Concerns about 'not listening to Russian concerns for 7 years' is another lie - as though Russia had a material position to begin with. Russia created the problems in Ukraine, quite on purpose. In 2004 they poisoned Ukrainian Yushchenko, later, the GRU/FIS/FSB were all over, controlling and corrupting their stooge Yanukovich - who publicly declared he was going to focus on Europe, but after consolidating power, he indicated that Ukraine was going to 'Go with Russia'. A revolution ensued - and Putin invaded Crimea and invaded (yes, invaded) the Donbas where his forces 'not in uniform' were used to start a conflict between Ukrainians. Even the leaders of the Ukrainian ultra nationalists were on Putin's payroll - he was cynically playing both sides. If you want to understand Putin's genocidal motivations in Ukraine, read his own words [1] You can read Michael McFaul's (former Ambassador to Russia) great articulation of the situation [2] 2) Saddam Hussein was a totalitarian mass murderer who invaded Kuwait (Iran before that), gassed his own citizens. Saddam would call out members of Congress, ask them to confess to their failures ... and then have them executed on the spot. Saddam is responsible for situation he created for himself, American intentions and methods were overall in good faith, though obviously poorly applied. The 'WMD story' was an exaggeration of reality for reasons of populism, but it was not even false - WMD's were a problem for this regime, as was his ongoing antagonism. [1] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 [2] https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/what-putin-fears-most/ https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/what-putin-fears...
- fosk 4y ago
  > Russia has no real threat from NATO - there is 0% chance of NATO aggression towards Russia, and they know it. I actually think that this is wrong. And that is the key to understand Russia’s behavior. Russia seems to have (legitimate I would say, given the past) fears that it will be attacked eventually like it happened in the past and needs to be - as a result of that - heavily defended.

mda 4y ago

I am sorry but this is total bs, nobody cornered Russia.

sitkack 4y ago
That is a flippant and simplistic view of the situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lQ-E-7b-Vw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lQ-E-7b-Vw The EU put stipulations on Ukraine, that they could only have free trade status with the EU or Russia but not both. This pulled UA westward at the detriment of Russia. Ukraine had a lower performing, cheaper economy than Russia, free trade status with the EU means that it could have setup factories for rich EU companies. Huge untapped oil and gas deposits were discovered in Ukraine as well, putting Russia's energy dominance over Europe into doubt. With all of their financial eggs in the oil basket and all of that corruption to feed ... We now see the result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union...
- jollybean 4y ago
  "The EU put stipulations on Ukraine, that they could only have free trade status with the EU or Russia but not both. This pulled UA westward at the detriment of Russia." ? They said the same thing to the UK, and they say the same thing to every country. Do you understand what trade harmonization means ? You can't be part of multiple trade harmonization zones.
  - freeflight 4y ago
    > They said the same thing to the UK They didn't because the UK didn't even have the same problem due to the UK already having been a EU member for a long time, as such it was already tooled for EU market demands. While the Ukrainian economy was very much tooled towards former Soviet markets like Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, those made up 60% of Ukraine's exports in 2013 [0]. Obviously a lot of that fell apart after 2014, instead came IMF bailouts aka loans [1], which have been keeping the Ukrainian economy alive since then, now substituted with additional credits for the weapons some countries are supplying Ukraine. > Do you understand what trade harmonization means ? You can't be part of multiple trade harmonization zones. So you do understand the actual issue? Then why act like it ain't an issue and it's just "Russian propaganda like in the UK!"? [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-russia-ukraine-factbox-idUSBRE9AL0LQ20131122 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-russia-ukraine-factbox... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27233152 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27233152

jollybean 4y ago

1) This is Russian propaganda - either from someone who doesn't understand the situation (i.e. 'Useful Idiocy' as Stalin himself coined the term) - or - arguing in bad faith. It's ironically a very good example of the cynical, authoritarian, toxic 'bad faith' acting by the Russian government, and people. Foreign Minster Lavarov - literally just yesterday, was lambasting Israel for 'supporting the Nazi regime in Ukraine'. The word 'repulsive' isn't strong enough. 'NATO expansion' is - much like the public story of 'WMDs in Iraq' - a canard. It's as stupid as the lie about 'denazification' which Putin is using to justify a genocide. Russia has no real threat from NATO - there is 0% chance of NATO aggression towards Russia, and they know it. Concerns about 'not listening to Russian concerns for 7 years' is another lie - as though Russia had a material position to begin with. Russia created the problems in Ukraine, quite on purpose. In 2004 they poisoned Ukrainian Yushchenko, later, the GRU/FIS/FSB were all over, controlling and corrupting their stooge Yanukovich - who publicly declared he was going to focus on Europe, but after consolidating power, he indicated that Ukraine was going to 'Go with Russia'. A revolution ensued - and Putin invaded Crimea and invaded (yes, invaded) the Donbas where his forces 'not in uniform' were used to start a conflict between Ukrainians. Even the leaders of the Ukrainian ultra nationalists were on Putin's payroll - he was cynically playing both sides. If you want to understand Putin's genocidal motivations in Ukraine, read his own words [1] You can read Michael McFaul's (former Ambassador to Russia) great articulation of the situation [2] 2) Saddam Hussein was a totalitarian mass murderer who invaded Kuwait (Iran before that), gassed his own citizens. Saddam would call out members of Congress, ask them to confess to their failures ... and then have them executed on the spot. Saddam is responsible for situation he created for himself, American intentions and methods were overall in good faith, though obviously poorly applied. The 'WMD story' was an exaggeration of reality for reasons of populism, but it was not even false - WMD's were a problem for this regime, as was his ongoing antagonism. [1] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 [2] https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/what-putin-fears-most/ https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/what-putin-fears...

fosk 4y ago
> Russia has no real threat from NATO - there is 0% chance of NATO aggression towards Russia, and they know it. I actually think that this is wrong. And that is the key to understand Russia’s behavior. Russia seems to have (legitimate I would say, given the past) fears that it will be attacked eventually like it happened in the past and needs to be - as a result of that - heavily defended.