4 ms·

Yeah the discussion is so dishonest on both ends at this point. The complaint that returning to the office will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominate

Yeah the discussion is so dishonest on both ends at this point. The complaint that returning to the office will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce is maybe the most absurd attempt yet to destroy RTO plans. At the end of the day employers want to see what their employees are doing and employees want to avoid insane commutes / high COL rents / not feel like they are being spied on all the time, in part cause they maybe do 4 hours of work a day anyway. That's what's driving this. The rest is noise.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
21723 5y ago
> The complaint that returning to the office will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce is maybe the most absurd attempt yet to destroy RTO plans. It isn't. If you are disabled, black, female, or older, an open-plan office is not a comfortable place. It's a halfway house for frat boys, but people for whom being unfairly evaluated and unjustly terminated is the kind of thing that happens at least once in a career do not, in general, do well in it.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  Your comment is ridiculous. I'm an able-bodied white male but I'm also not neuro-normative, nor do I enjoy open office plans. What people do like open office plans? Hasn't this issue been settled yet?
  - 21723 5y ago
    Then you're included as disabled. You have a neurological makeup that increases the difficulty of securing and succeeding in employment. You have almost certaimly been given fewer opportunities than you would if you were neurotypical and good at politics. Private-sector politicians and frat boys love open-plan offices; most of us are neutral at best, and with age most people come to loathe them.
    - skeeter2020 5y ago
      > Private-sector politicians and frat boys love open-plan offices Not sure what a "Private-sector politician" is, nor what your intense hatred of open-plan offices has to do with collocated workplaces in general, but I can assure you that the reasons people split across the remote vs. office spectrum is far more diverse than your generic bucketing of "white male jerks == office love; everyone else hates them". It's kind of ironic that someone has such polarized, uncompromising views on the topic, supported by the reasoning that "they don't reflect and support a diverse and non-binary workforce"
      - incone123 5y ago
        I think private sector politician is intended to mean someone working for a private company but who embodies the worst of politicians: big on personal visibility, short on doing the work.
    - dml2135 5y ago
      I'm white, male, straight, neurotypical -- and I vastly prefer remote work and do not plan to go back into the office. So, how does that fit into your narrative? There are plenty of more substantive reasons to not want to go back beyond "it's not fair".
  - dleslie 5y ago
    Open office is cheaper than cubicles and allows more employees in one space. That's why it caught on with decision makers. Some people like it because they thrive on attention and being disruptive, and open offices are optimized for that behavior.
    - baq 5y ago
      > allows more employees in one space and that's perhaps only technically true... as soon as you start adding quiet spaces, collaboration spaces, conference rooms, etc. necessary for open office layouts to actually work, the plain 3-4 person office plans (which nobody had for years, i was lucky to have them replaced with open office only during the pandemic) are just plain more efficient. open offices, to the surprise of no one actually working in them, force people to the worst of both worlds: have to commute to work to IM with colleagues anyway to not disrupt the whole office. it's madness.
      - dleslie 5y ago
        I think it's worth noting that those things are adaptations that occurred after open concept took over. It's sort of a situation where the industry went a direction and never thought to reconsider, backpedal, and take another path entirely. Instead, we kept modifying our response to our poor decision to try and improve it. But in the era of WFH the cubicles and private offices make even less sense: if I spend most of my day isolated in a cubicle, then why can't I spend that time in my office at home?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- IshKebab 5y ago
  Surely they're better for disabled people because there are fewer doors to deal with? And why on earth would open plan be specifically bad for black, female or older people? Do you think open plan offices are all like The Wolf of Wall Street?
Clubber 5y ago
>At the end of the day employers want to see what their employees are doing and employees want to avoid insane commutes / high COL rents / not feel like they are being spied on all the time, in part cause they maybe do 4 hours of work a day anyway. That's what's driving this. The rest is noise. This is probably the most honest take I've read. Also, it's been proven WFH on a grand scale is effective over the past 2 years, so many arguments against the efficacy of WFH crumbled over Covid. Bottom line is employers who don't want to allow WFH will have a smaller and more expensive pool than they are accustomed to. There are enough WFH opportunities that going to the office is no longer a given. The current debate is employees who want to WFH that are currently employed by companies who don't want employees to WFH. It will iron itself out in a year or two one way or the other. FWIW, I've gone to the office 100% of the time maybe 1/2 of my 20+ year career, mostly early on. I've managed to negotiate work from home days, both in the 90s, 00s, and 10s. I WFH full time today. I meet the guys for lunch every week. It's nice and it gets me out of the house. We're a small team though.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

21723 5y ago

> The complaint that returning to the office will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce is maybe the most absurd attempt yet to destroy RTO plans. It isn't. If you are disabled, black, female, or older, an open-plan office is not a comfortable place. It's a halfway house for frat boys, but people for whom being unfairly evaluated and unjustly terminated is the kind of thing that happens at least once in a career do not, in general, do well in it.

nathanaldensr 5y ago
Your comment is ridiculous. I'm an able-bodied white male but I'm also not neuro-normative, nor do I enjoy open office plans. What people do like open office plans? Hasn't this issue been settled yet?
- 21723 5y ago
  Then you're included as disabled. You have a neurological makeup that increases the difficulty of securing and succeeding in employment. You have almost certaimly been given fewer opportunities than you would if you were neurotypical and good at politics. Private-sector politicians and frat boys love open-plan offices; most of us are neutral at best, and with age most people come to loathe them.
  - skeeter2020 5y ago
    > Private-sector politicians and frat boys love open-plan offices Not sure what a "Private-sector politician" is, nor what your intense hatred of open-plan offices has to do with collocated workplaces in general, but I can assure you that the reasons people split across the remote vs. office spectrum is far more diverse than your generic bucketing of "white male jerks == office love; everyone else hates them". It's kind of ironic that someone has such polarized, uncompromising views on the topic, supported by the reasoning that "they don't reflect and support a diverse and non-binary workforce"
    - incone123 5y ago
      I think private sector politician is intended to mean someone working for a private company but who embodies the worst of politicians: big on personal visibility, short on doing the work.
  - dml2135 5y ago
    I'm white, male, straight, neurotypical -- and I vastly prefer remote work and do not plan to go back into the office. So, how does that fit into your narrative? There are plenty of more substantive reasons to not want to go back beyond "it's not fair".
- dleslie 5y ago
  Open office is cheaper than cubicles and allows more employees in one space. That's why it caught on with decision makers. Some people like it because they thrive on attention and being disruptive, and open offices are optimized for that behavior.
  - baq 5y ago
    > allows more employees in one space and that's perhaps only technically true... as soon as you start adding quiet spaces, collaboration spaces, conference rooms, etc. necessary for open office layouts to actually work, the plain 3-4 person office plans (which nobody had for years, i was lucky to have them replaced with open office only during the pandemic) are just plain more efficient. open offices, to the surprise of no one actually working in them, force people to the worst of both worlds: have to commute to work to IM with colleagues anyway to not disrupt the whole office. it's madness.
    - dleslie 5y ago
      I think it's worth noting that those things are adaptations that occurred after open concept took over. It's sort of a situation where the industry went a direction and never thought to reconsider, backpedal, and take another path entirely. Instead, we kept modifying our response to our poor decision to try and improve it. But in the era of WFH the cubicles and private offices make even less sense: if I spend most of my day isolated in a cubicle, then why can't I spend that time in my office at home?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
IshKebab 5y ago
Surely they're better for disabled people because there are fewer doors to deal with? And why on earth would open plan be specifically bad for black, female or older people? Do you think open plan offices are all like The Wolf of Wall Street?

Clubber 5y ago

>At the end of the day employers want to see what their employees are doing and employees want to avoid insane commutes / high COL rents / not feel like they are being spied on all the time, in part cause they maybe do 4 hours of work a day anyway. That's what's driving this. The rest is noise. This is probably the most honest take I've read. Also, it's been proven WFH on a grand scale is effective over the past 2 years, so many arguments against the efficacy of WFH crumbled over Covid. Bottom line is employers who don't want to allow WFH will have a smaller and more expensive pool than they are accustomed to. There are enough WFH opportunities that going to the office is no longer a given. The current debate is employees who want to WFH that are currently employed by companies who don't want employees to WFH. It will iron itself out in a year or two one way or the other. FWIW, I've gone to the office 100% of the time maybe 1/2 of my 20+ year career, mostly early on. I've managed to negotiate work from home days, both in the 90s, 00s, and 10s. I WFH full time today. I meet the guys for lunch every week. It's nice and it gets me out of the house. We're a small team though.