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> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does

by azth 4y ago

> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does anyone take tossing around words like this seriously anymore? I am pro working remotely, but this is just ridiculous.

newsclues 4y ago
Not without presenting any facts or sources. In this case it seems like lazy people throwing everything at the wall, including prejudice, to prevent going to work.
Octoth0rpe 4y ago
Yes. I don't see how at a minimum "more able-bodied" should be controversial. Someone who requires a wheelchair has a much easier experience when WFH. "Younger" is a likely extension of that given how age affects mobility.
- thebean11 4y ago
  People in wheelchairs leave their homes all the time. Apple has buses and offices that I'm sure are wheelchair accessible. Apple probably offers pretty good insurance to get a motorized wheelchair if needed. If someone really can't make it to the office physically, I'm sure the policies are somewhat more nuanced. I understand it may be more difficult for certain people, but I guess to me it's a non sequitur. Doing different things is varying levels of difficult for different people. Is the conclusion that nobody should ask you to do anything inconvenient?
  - Octoth0rpe 4y ago
    > I understand it may be more difficult for certain people If you can understand that, then you should understand that certain people will make rational decisions to minimize their difficulty. Remote work positions are more available now, and such people will likely naturally gravitate towards them. Consequently, non-remote positions will be disproportionally more able-bodied, which is exactly the point of the Apple employee statement.
    - thebean11 4y ago
      Yeah maybe. I'd be curious to know how big of a factor it actually is. Would an extraverted person using a wheelchair prefer to work from home, or go in? I'd be hesitant to assume something like that is necessarily the biggest factor for somebody. It could certainly trend that way though. I don't see that as super problematic.
      - lghh 4y ago
        They have that option. Apple's offices are not going away. The letter specifically mentions that.
        thebean11 4y ago
        Yeah sure. What I'm getting at is that it's not necessarily unjust to ask someone in a wheelchair to go somewhere in person for their job, and I'm not convinced most people in a wheelchair would see it that way.
  - burkaman 4y ago
    The conclusion is that we should remove barriers whenever possible. Climbing a mountain is more difficult for people in a wheelchair, but that's just the way it is, we can't make the mountain equally accessible for everyone. Climbing the stairs of a skyscraper is more difficult for people in a wheelchair, but it doesn't have to be that way, we can install an elevator. Extend that to everything. We shouldn't ask people to do something inconvenient when we could make it convenient.
    - thebean11 4y ago
      I guess in my mind accessible buildings, accessible transportation to and from work, insurance that makes it easy to get high quality treatment and medical devices are akin to "installing the elevator" in your analogy. Part of the job is getting to the top of the skyscraper and those things make it easier.
      - burkaman 4y ago
        > Part of the job is getting to the top of the skyscraper I guess that's the core disagreement here. The people who wrote this letter do not think getting to the top of the skyscraper is an important part of the job worth sacrificing even a small amount of accessibility, and the executives do.
    - conductr 4y ago
      Chewing is so inconvenient. Feeding tubes for everyone! That’s a joke… we need the flexibility to cater to those who require it. We don’t need to make the baseline match the minimum. I think ADA and other items do well in this regard. So, just let a person WFH if attendance is overly inconvenient. It’s not the standard expectation. If working in the office is a baseline then It doesn’t mean they get to move to another country then claim the commute is now inconvenient. I think this wasn’t really much of an issue before Covid. Why is it now?
      - burkaman 4y ago
        > I think this wasn’t really much of an issue before Covid. Why is it now? It was. The ADA was the result of an enormous amount of struggle and activism, and that movement continues to the present. Reach out to a local disability rights organization (I guarantee there's one near you) and ask if they had any concerns about office work before Covid. I'd also recommend the documentary Crip Camp if you're not familiar with this part of American history. Edit: Here's an article from the start of the pandemic with lots of quotes relevant to your question. Sorry for the archive link, the site seems to be down right now. > Watching these accommodations become available in a wide-spread way so quickly has been really painful. It hurts not only because I could have benefited from accommodations like this throughout my education, but because there are so many others who could have benefited, or were forced to drop out of school, or quit their jobs because their school or employer told them they were impossible to accommodate. These accommodations have always been possible but acknowledging that requires acknowledging the ableism behind their denial. - https://web.archive.org/web/20200329102738/https://www.teenvogue.com/story/disabled-people-react-to-coronavirus-work-from-home-accommodations https://web.archive.org/web/20200329102738/https://www.teenv... It's a quick read and it's very good, I recommend reading it. Most of the issues discussed could be most easily addressed by allowing full remote work. Also, many of the people quoted have "invisible disabilities" - you may have coworkers like them without realizing it. This isn't just about ramps and elevators and other common accommodations.
hbosch 4y ago
It might seem exhausting, or annoying, or overly descriptive... but it is true and I find it hard to dispute.
- richwater 4y ago
  how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?
  - bckr 4y ago
    Well, off the top of my head, black folks, asians, and latin folks might be more likely to be caretakers and/or further from the office. That said, if they have Apple salaries, I'm sure they can work it out. That said (again), they might need to spend more of that Apple salary than their peers to figure it out. So, it's a bold and unsubstantiated statement, but might have some truth to it. Idk, wish they would cite sources.
    - agentdrtran 4y ago
      What source would one cite for this that's not just anecdotes?
      - bckr 4y ago
        I can imagine a study could be done on the effects of WFH/WFO on minorities. That said, I wouldn't discount anecdotes if there were enough of them.
    - greybox 4y ago
      Im pretty sure caretakers can;t work from home .... Also isn't it pretty racist /sexist to suggest that just because your black or a woman, you won't be able to commute?
      - bckr 4y ago
        > pretty sure caretakers [can't] work from home Why not? > Also isn't it pretty racist /sexist to suggest that just because [you're] black or a woman, you won't be able to commute? I don't agree with the framing of this... The question is whether or not WFO would impact these folks more negatively than their peers, not that they wouldn't be able to do it at all.
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lowbloodsugar 4y ago
lghh 4y ago
Why is it ridiculous? It seems very, very obvious to me. Younger = less likely to have a family so commutes are not as big of an issue + the many responsibilities of having a kid that are easier to manage wfh Whiter = this is the one that I have the least contextual evidence for off the top of my head, but feel safe assuming it's at least partially true given the other factors Male-Dominated = the kid issues raised above certainly affect women more than men Neuro-normative = designing your own wfh space + not requiring travel to an office seems pretty clearly better for neuro-divergent people, especially when the office still exists for those that need to utilize it Able-bodied = much easier to wfh when you're in a wheelchair, don't have to commute with eyesight impairments, etc
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  Citations requested.
  - lghh 4y ago
    For what? That younger people are more likely to not have kids than people further in their career? That women’s careers tend to be affected more by having kids than men? This are “the sky is blue” type facts. They don’t really need citation.
rastignack 4y ago
This is downright racist.
sterlind 4y ago
Listing privileges like that is a progressive millennial/zoomer thing that gets people's hackles up, but in its defense: I'm physically disabled. I use a wheelchair, which makes commuting hard, and a reclining desk which is too big to fit in an open office. I can't type much, so I sometimes rely on dictation and eye tracking. I definitely can't do that in an open office. I have a bunch of doctor's appointments, weekly PT etc. and sometimes I'm too fatigued to work, so I have to crash, so I end up with weird schedules. despite this, I've invented several critical algorithms for extremely hard problems that helped our company scale, along with singlehandedly writing tons of formally-verified distributed systems infrastructure. I'm valuable enough to keep around despite being damaged goods. hence I have permanent WFH. still miss the office sometimes though.
noelsusman 4y ago
I'm more tired of people who can't see any type of diversity-related language without getting triggered.

by azth 4y ago

newsclues 4y ago

Not without presenting any facts or sources. In this case it seems like lazy people throwing everything at the wall, including prejudice, to prevent going to work.

Octoth0rpe 4y ago

Yes. I don't see how at a minimum "more able-bodied" should be controversial. Someone who requires a wheelchair has a much easier experience when WFH. "Younger" is a likely extension of that given how age affects mobility.

thebean11 4y ago
People in wheelchairs leave their homes all the time. Apple has buses and offices that I'm sure are wheelchair accessible. Apple probably offers pretty good insurance to get a motorized wheelchair if needed. If someone really can't make it to the office physically, I'm sure the policies are somewhat more nuanced. I understand it may be more difficult for certain people, but I guess to me it's a non sequitur. Doing different things is varying levels of difficult for different people. Is the conclusion that nobody should ask you to do anything inconvenient?
- Octoth0rpe 4y ago
  > I understand it may be more difficult for certain people If you can understand that, then you should understand that certain people will make rational decisions to minimize their difficulty. Remote work positions are more available now, and such people will likely naturally gravitate towards them. Consequently, non-remote positions will be disproportionally more able-bodied, which is exactly the point of the Apple employee statement.
  - thebean11 4y ago
    Yeah maybe. I'd be curious to know how big of a factor it actually is. Would an extraverted person using a wheelchair prefer to work from home, or go in? I'd be hesitant to assume something like that is necessarily the biggest factor for somebody. It could certainly trend that way though. I don't see that as super problematic.
    - lghh 4y ago
      They have that option. Apple's offices are not going away. The letter specifically mentions that.
      - thebean11 4y ago
        Yeah sure. What I'm getting at is that it's not necessarily unjust to ask someone in a wheelchair to go somewhere in person for their job, and I'm not convinced most people in a wheelchair would see it that way.
- burkaman 4y ago
  The conclusion is that we should remove barriers whenever possible. Climbing a mountain is more difficult for people in a wheelchair, but that's just the way it is, we can't make the mountain equally accessible for everyone. Climbing the stairs of a skyscraper is more difficult for people in a wheelchair, but it doesn't have to be that way, we can install an elevator. Extend that to everything. We shouldn't ask people to do something inconvenient when we could make it convenient.
  - thebean11 4y ago
    I guess in my mind accessible buildings, accessible transportation to and from work, insurance that makes it easy to get high quality treatment and medical devices are akin to "installing the elevator" in your analogy. Part of the job is getting to the top of the skyscraper and those things make it easier.
    - burkaman 4y ago
      > Part of the job is getting to the top of the skyscraper I guess that's the core disagreement here. The people who wrote this letter do not think getting to the top of the skyscraper is an important part of the job worth sacrificing even a small amount of accessibility, and the executives do.
  - conductr 4y ago
    Chewing is so inconvenient. Feeding tubes for everyone! That’s a joke… we need the flexibility to cater to those who require it. We don’t need to make the baseline match the minimum. I think ADA and other items do well in this regard. So, just let a person WFH if attendance is overly inconvenient. It’s not the standard expectation. If working in the office is a baseline then It doesn’t mean they get to move to another country then claim the commute is now inconvenient. I think this wasn’t really much of an issue before Covid. Why is it now?
    - burkaman 4y ago
      > I think this wasn’t really much of an issue before Covid. Why is it now? It was. The ADA was the result of an enormous amount of struggle and activism, and that movement continues to the present. Reach out to a local disability rights organization (I guarantee there's one near you) and ask if they had any concerns about office work before Covid. I'd also recommend the documentary Crip Camp if you're not familiar with this part of American history. Edit: Here's an article from the start of the pandemic with lots of quotes relevant to your question. Sorry for the archive link, the site seems to be down right now. > Watching these accommodations become available in a wide-spread way so quickly has been really painful. It hurts not only because I could have benefited from accommodations like this throughout my education, but because there are so many others who could have benefited, or were forced to drop out of school, or quit their jobs because their school or employer told them they were impossible to accommodate. These accommodations have always been possible but acknowledging that requires acknowledging the ableism behind their denial. - https://web.archive.org/web/20200329102738/https://www.teenvogue.com/story/disabled-people-react-to-coronavirus-work-from-home-accommodations https://web.archive.org/web/20200329102738/https://www.teenv... It's a quick read and it's very good, I recommend reading it. Most of the issues discussed could be most easily addressed by allowing full remote work. Also, many of the people quoted have "invisible disabilities" - you may have coworkers like them without realizing it. This isn't just about ramps and elevators and other common accommodations.

hbosch 4y ago

It might seem exhausting, or annoying, or overly descriptive... but it is true and I find it hard to dispute.

richwater 4y ago
how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?
- bckr 4y ago
  Well, off the top of my head, black folks, asians, and latin folks might be more likely to be caretakers and/or further from the office. That said, if they have Apple salaries, I'm sure they can work it out. That said (again), they might need to spend more of that Apple salary than their peers to figure it out. So, it's a bold and unsubstantiated statement, but might have some truth to it. Idk, wish they would cite sources.
  - agentdrtran 4y ago
    What source would one cite for this that's not just anecdotes?
    - bckr 4y ago
      I can imagine a study could be done on the effects of WFH/WFO on minorities. That said, I wouldn't discount anecdotes if there were enough of them.
  - greybox 4y ago
    Im pretty sure caretakers can;t work from home .... Also isn't it pretty racist /sexist to suggest that just because your black or a woman, you won't be able to commute?
    - bckr 4y ago
      > pretty sure caretakers [can't] work from home Why not? > Also isn't it pretty racist /sexist to suggest that just because [you're] black or a woman, you won't be able to commute? I don't agree with the framing of this... The question is whether or not WFO would impact these folks more negatively than their peers, not that they wouldn't be able to do it at all.

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lowbloodsugar 4y ago

lghh 4y ago

Why is it ridiculous? It seems very, very obvious to me. Younger = less likely to have a family so commutes are not as big of an issue + the many responsibilities of having a kid that are easier to manage wfh Whiter = this is the one that I have the least contextual evidence for off the top of my head, but feel safe assuming it's at least partially true given the other factors Male-Dominated = the kid issues raised above certainly affect women more than men Neuro-normative = designing your own wfh space + not requiring travel to an office seems pretty clearly better for neuro-divergent people, especially when the office still exists for those that need to utilize it Able-bodied = much easier to wfh when you're in a wheelchair, don't have to commute with eyesight impairments, etc

systemvoltage 4y ago
Citations requested.
- lghh 4y ago
  For what? That younger people are more likely to not have kids than people further in their career? That women’s careers tend to be affected more by having kids than men? This are “the sky is blue” type facts. They don’t really need citation.

rastignack 4y ago

This is downright racist.

sterlind 4y ago

Listing privileges like that is a progressive millennial/zoomer thing that gets people's hackles up, but in its defense: I'm physically disabled. I use a wheelchair, which makes commuting hard, and a reclining desk which is too big to fit in an open office. I can't type much, so I sometimes rely on dictation and eye tracking. I definitely can't do that in an open office. I have a bunch of doctor's appointments, weekly PT etc. and sometimes I'm too fatigued to work, so I have to crash, so I end up with weird schedules. despite this, I've invented several critical algorithms for extremely hard problems that helped our company scale, along with singlehandedly writing tons of formally-verified distributed systems infrastructure. I'm valuable enough to keep around despite being damaged goods. hence I have permanent WFH. still miss the office sometimes though.

noelsusman 4y ago

I'm more tired of people who can't see any type of diversity-related language without getting triggered.