4 ms·

Stop whining and vote with your feet. If you're talented enough to work for Apple, there are plenty of other wonderful companies out there that will happily let

by tharne 4y ago

Stop whining and vote with your feet. If you're talented enough to work for Apple, there are plenty of other wonderful companies out there that will happily let you work remotely. Not every company needs to have the exact same policies on everything.

napolux 4y ago
If enough people will vote with their feet, Apple will be a full remote company by the end of the year :D
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
t-writescode 4y ago
“The first time you have an argument with your spouse, you should get a divorce” Is what you’re saying here. They’re trying to make company changes to improve their relationship with someone they like to work for, without using the nuclear option.
- dubya 4y ago
  I wonder how many marriages have been saved by an open letter.
  - prewett 4y ago
    The GP's metaphor of a marriage is not applicable in this case, since a marriage is a friendship/partnership, and the corporate structure is essentially a kingdom. Options are limited if the king and his advisors aren't listening, or they listened and rejected the approach for whatever their reasons are. An open letter to the king probably won't change anything, but worth a try before emigrating.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I go to work because I like exchanging labor for money. The marriage analogy is kind of crazy. I’ve had eight jobs in my 25 years as an adult. It never took me more than two months to find a job I was happy with. It took me 15 years and one failed marriage to find a a spouse I was happy with. When I have a disagreement with my wife, we compromise as equal partners. I’m not in any way an equal partner to the CEO of a 2 trillion+ dollar company. Leaving my marriage necessitated lawyers, going to court, and giving up half of everything we accumulated together. Leaving a job required a form resignation letter with meaningless platitudes and a two week notice.
- tofuahdude 4y ago
  We swap jobs all the time and there is no expectation of permanence; not a very good analogy.
  - t-writescode 4y ago
    Some people like their jobs and their coworkers and aren’t especially interested in changing companies. Sometimes leadership wants to do the right thing, but they can’t hear the workers through the managers
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So you really think the CEO of Apple didn’t know that people would prefer to work from home and have the option to work from some place that cost less?
BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"Stop whining and vote with your feet." If this is a deal breaker, yes. But this kind of approach is a last resort. Why shouldn't someone try to influence company policy before taking such a drastic step?
- scarface74 4y ago
  What’s drastic about leaving a job? The average tenure of a software engineer at any major tech company is 3 years. I never thought it was a “drastic” step to change jobs when one wasn’t what I like - 8 jobs and counting including six since 2008.
  - BitwiseFool 4y ago
    How drastic it is depends on the personality and living arrangements of the people involved. I know it's a common stereotype that developers hop jobs frequently, but there are also plenty of developers who do not. I know many such people at my current employer. I happen to be very content working there despite knowing I could make more if I went somewhere else and then jumped ship again and again.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      It’s not a stereotype. It’s statistics. https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-stay-at-a-job/ https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-... The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”. As far as the living arrangements, if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?
      - BitwiseFool 4y ago
        >"The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”." I feel like being "content" involves a lot of other factors and trying to determine if someone is content means looking at other aspects of the job holistically. I've always detested yearly evaluations and the 'song and dance' one must do to write "corpo-speak" about their achievements and goals. Yet, that consistent displeasure has never outweighed the work life balance I've enjoyed so far. My concern is that in your framework I would be considered by definition, not content. >"if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?" I don't see jobs as fungible. While you might be able to WFH the new company will have different benefits such as potentially worse health insurance, compensation that isn't as good, or fewer paid days off. You might end up working remotely for a company in another timezone and that might mean you cannot drop your child off at school anymore. That kind of thing.
inerte 4y ago
I usually think along your lines, and recently I read an article that made me think different https://the.ink/p/as-goes-amazon-so-goes-the-nation?s=r https://the.ink/p/as-goes-amazon-so-goes-the-nation?s=r - not always different, and I don't know when to apply one thinking or the other yet. But I see its value.
WithinReason 4y ago
Some companies Apple poached engineers from now have fully remote working arrangements and are hiring. Just saying.
chekibreki 4y ago
You are right, I will apply to Apple, because I don't like working from home.
dehrmann 4y ago
Also, you know Apple's stance. If they even respond to the open letter, expect that they'll want you back in a year or two, anyway.

by tharne 4y ago

napolux 4y ago

If enough people will vote with their feet, Apple will be a full remote company by the end of the year :D

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

t-writescode 4y ago

“The first time you have an argument with your spouse, you should get a divorce” Is what you’re saying here. They’re trying to make company changes to improve their relationship with someone they like to work for, without using the nuclear option.

dubya 4y ago
I wonder how many marriages have been saved by an open letter.
- prewett 4y ago
  The GP's metaphor of a marriage is not applicable in this case, since a marriage is a friendship/partnership, and the corporate structure is essentially a kingdom. Options are limited if the king and his advisors aren't listening, or they listened and rejected the approach for whatever their reasons are. An open letter to the king probably won't change anything, but worth a try before emigrating.
scarface74 4y ago
I go to work because I like exchanging labor for money. The marriage analogy is kind of crazy. I’ve had eight jobs in my 25 years as an adult. It never took me more than two months to find a job I was happy with. It took me 15 years and one failed marriage to find a a spouse I was happy with. When I have a disagreement with my wife, we compromise as equal partners. I’m not in any way an equal partner to the CEO of a 2 trillion+ dollar company. Leaving my marriage necessitated lawyers, going to court, and giving up half of everything we accumulated together. Leaving a job required a form resignation letter with meaningless platitudes and a two week notice.
tofuahdude 4y ago
We swap jobs all the time and there is no expectation of permanence; not a very good analogy.
- t-writescode 4y ago
  Some people like their jobs and their coworkers and aren’t especially interested in changing companies. Sometimes leadership wants to do the right thing, but they can’t hear the workers through the managers
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So you really think the CEO of Apple didn’t know that people would prefer to work from home and have the option to work from some place that cost less?

BitwiseFool 4y ago

>"Stop whining and vote with your feet." If this is a deal breaker, yes. But this kind of approach is a last resort. Why shouldn't someone try to influence company policy before taking such a drastic step?

scarface74 4y ago
What’s drastic about leaving a job? The average tenure of a software engineer at any major tech company is 3 years. I never thought it was a “drastic” step to change jobs when one wasn’t what I like - 8 jobs and counting including six since 2008.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  How drastic it is depends on the personality and living arrangements of the people involved. I know it's a common stereotype that developers hop jobs frequently, but there are also plenty of developers who do not. I know many such people at my current employer. I happen to be very content working there despite knowing I could make more if I went somewhere else and then jumped ship again and again.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    It’s not a stereotype. It’s statistics. https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-stay-at-a-job/ https://developerpitstop.com/how-long-do-software-engineers-... The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”. As far as the living arrangements, if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?
    - BitwiseFool 4y ago
      >"The people who want to work from home and are being forced to work in the office, by definition aren’t “content”." I feel like being "content" involves a lot of other factors and trying to determine if someone is content means looking at other aspects of the job holistically. I've always detested yearly evaluations and the 'song and dance' one must do to write "corpo-speak" about their achievements and goals. Yet, that consistent displeasure has never outweighed the work life balance I've enjoyed so far. My concern is that in your framework I would be considered by definition, not content. >"if the impetus for you leaving is to find remote work, how will changing to another job change your living situation?" I don't see jobs as fungible. While you might be able to WFH the new company will have different benefits such as potentially worse health insurance, compensation that isn't as good, or fewer paid days off. You might end up working remotely for a company in another timezone and that might mean you cannot drop your child off at school anymore. That kind of thing.

inerte 4y ago

I usually think along your lines, and recently I read an article that made me think different https://the.ink/p/as-goes-amazon-so-goes-the-nation?s=r https://the.ink/p/as-goes-amazon-so-goes-the-nation?s=r - not always different, and I don't know when to apply one thinking or the other yet. But I see its value.

WithinReason 4y ago

Some companies Apple poached engineers from now have fully remote working arrangements and are hiring. Just saying.

chekibreki 4y ago

You are right, I will apply to Apple, because I don't like working from home.

dehrmann 4y ago

Also, you know Apple's stance. If they even respond to the open letter, expect that they'll want you back in a year or two, anyway.