4 ms·

PHP is probably the only language that makes it relatively easy for non-technical users to self-install a web application. It is not a quality inherent to PHP b

PHP is probably the only language that makes it relatively easy for non-technical users to self-install a web application. It is not a quality inherent to PHP but is a consequence of the widespread adoption of PHP among shared hosting providers (no web server setup required). This is a quote from Jeff Atwood (founder of Stackflow) about PHP (he's not a fan): Despite the serious problems with PHP, I was forced to consider it. If you want to produce free-as-in-whatever code that runs on virtually every server in the world with zero friction or configuration hassles, PHP is damn near your only option. [1] When did Atwood say this? 2012. A decade has passed and hardly anything has changed. Server installation remains needlessly complicated. Current solutions like Docker, Sandstorm, Cloudron, command line scripts etc. are "easy" for developers but not for ordinary users. What is easy for ordinary users? Installing a web app by uploading files to a folder on a server using a GUI FTP app is one example for PHP. (And for some non-technical users, even that might be too complicated). [1] https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/

pwdisswordfish9 4y ago
Agreed with the Atwood quote (not a fan of PHP myself; not a fan of Atwood, either). But I think you overestimate the approachability of PHP for non-technical users. > Current solutions like Docker, Sandstorm, Cloudron, command line scripts etc. are "easy" for developers but not for ordinary users. It sucks that Sandstorm didn't "win". But the implication here is that PHP is easy for "ordinary users". It's not, though. It's easy for a slice of the somewhat technical population at the low end of the technical spectrum. Ordinary people are still left out—and not to mention: susceptible/vulnerable to being lured by the false promises about the "easiness" of the PHP model. Unpatched installs of shoddily written PHP apps (or plugin-laden installs of WordPress) are an undeniable vector for potential security compromises of personal data, spam, and nodes use to coordinate the spread/execution of malware.
- open-source-ux 4y ago
  But the implication here is that PHP is easy for "ordinary users". It's not, though. I agree. I've often wondered: why can't web server apps be installed with the same ease-of-use as desktop apps? Simply click through simple screens and installation is complete. All desktop users know how to install desktop apps. Unfortunately, Sandstorm and Cloudron - trying to provide easy app installs - are not widely supported by hosting providers.
kentonv 4y ago
> Current solutions like Docker, Sandstorm, Cloudron, command line scripts etc. are "easy" for developers but not for ordinary users. What is easy for ordinary users? Installing a web app by uploading files to a folder on a server using a GUI FTP app is one example for PHP. Eh? Installing an app on Sandstorm or Cloudron is basically the same UX as installing an app on your phone. Certainly much easier than uploading files to an FTP server. I agree with your comment with regards to Docker and CLI. I'm also happy to agree that Sandstorm and Cloudron hosts are much less ubiquitous than PHP hosts, and that's a real blocker to ordinary users... but it seems weird to classify them as developer-oriented on that basis? (Disclosure: I co-founded Sandstorm.)
- open-source-ux 4y ago
  I'm also happy to agree that Sandstorm and Cloudron hosts are much less ubiquitous than PHP hosts, and that's a real blocker to ordinary users... but it seems weird to classify them as developer-oriented on that basis? That's a very fair point. It was unfair of me to lump Sandstorm and Cloudron togther. Sandstorm and Cloudron setup is carried out by the hosting provider. The trouble is that not many Sandstroms hosts exist, as you acknowledge. Sandstorm's aim is very commendable and thank you for tackling this important problem of deployment and web app installation.

pwdisswordfish9 4y ago

Agreed with the Atwood quote (not a fan of PHP myself; not a fan of Atwood, either). But I think you overestimate the approachability of PHP for non-technical users. > Current solutions like Docker, Sandstorm, Cloudron, command line scripts etc. are "easy" for developers but not for ordinary users. It sucks that Sandstorm didn't "win". But the implication here is that PHP is easy for "ordinary users". It's not, though. It's easy for a slice of the somewhat technical population at the low end of the technical spectrum. Ordinary people are still left out—and not to mention: susceptible/vulnerable to being lured by the false promises about the "easiness" of the PHP model. Unpatched installs of shoddily written PHP apps (or plugin-laden installs of WordPress) are an undeniable vector for potential security compromises of personal data, spam, and nodes use to coordinate the spread/execution of malware.

open-source-ux 4y ago
But the implication here is that PHP is easy for "ordinary users". It's not, though. I agree. I've often wondered: why can't web server apps be installed with the same ease-of-use as desktop apps? Simply click through simple screens and installation is complete. All desktop users know how to install desktop apps. Unfortunately, Sandstorm and Cloudron - trying to provide easy app installs - are not widely supported by hosting providers.

kentonv 4y ago

> Current solutions like Docker, Sandstorm, Cloudron, command line scripts etc. are "easy" for developers but not for ordinary users. What is easy for ordinary users? Installing a web app by uploading files to a folder on a server using a GUI FTP app is one example for PHP. Eh? Installing an app on Sandstorm or Cloudron is basically the same UX as installing an app on your phone. Certainly much easier than uploading files to an FTP server. I agree with your comment with regards to Docker and CLI. I'm also happy to agree that Sandstorm and Cloudron hosts are much less ubiquitous than PHP hosts, and that's a real blocker to ordinary users... but it seems weird to classify them as developer-oriented on that basis? (Disclosure: I co-founded Sandstorm.)

open-source-ux 4y ago
I'm also happy to agree that Sandstorm and Cloudron hosts are much less ubiquitous than PHP hosts, and that's a real blocker to ordinary users... but it seems weird to classify them as developer-oriented on that basis? That's a very fair point. It was unfair of me to lump Sandstorm and Cloudron togther. Sandstorm and Cloudron setup is carried out by the hosting provider. The trouble is that not many Sandstroms hosts exist, as you acknowledge. Sandstorm's aim is very commendable and thank you for tackling this important problem of deployment and web app installation.