4 ms·

This is tragic, from every way you look at it. I cannot think of a better way to, in one fell swoop: 1) Increase crime long term. 2) Weaken the mandate of the

by voz_ 4y ago

This is tragic, from every way you look at it. I cannot think of a better way to, in one fell swoop: 1) Increase crime long term. 2) Weaken the mandate of the Supreme Court, and destroy any trust people have in it. 3) Financially disenfranchise poor people further. 4) Hurt rape victims.

gadders 4y ago
I realise that (1) is from Freakonomics, but I can't help thinking there could (or should be) be better ways to stop unwanted pregnancies turning into criminals than aborting the foetus.
jimbob45 4y ago
I’d heavily challenge you on #2. For fifty years, every SCOTUS nominee has been weighed against their opinion on Roe v Wade. It’s high time to relegate that decision to the legislative branch so that we can more wisely seat new justices based on a wider variety of opinions.
- cmurf 4y ago
  Congress should pass a right to privacy law, and repass the Equality Amendment. Not a dime of money need be spent convincing blue state voters, spend it in red states that ratified the first attempt at the Equality Amendment.
waelkjlkj4t 4y ago
hedora 4y ago
4 sounds like hyperbole, but Ohio is now in the process of specifically banning abortion in rape cases.
- chomp 4y ago
  Texas already banned it, no exclusions for rape and incest. Greg Abbott says it's fine because he's going to "eliminate all rapists". https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/texas-gov-abbott-defends-new-abortion-law-vows-eliminate-all-n1278648 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/texas-gov-abb...
  - Blammar 4y ago
    I'm wondering if abbott (he's not worth capitalizing) is going to do that by redefining the meaning of rape in Manly Texas...
    - jen20 4y ago
      Greg Abbott is hardly a stellar definition of masculinity by any stretch of any imagination.
  - annexrichmond 4y ago
    From a minute of googling this isn't the full picture. Abortion in Texas is legal up to the point where there is a "detected heart beat", supposedly around 6 weeks.
    - JustResign 4y ago
      How long do you think it takes for a woman to know she is pregnant?
- hotpotamus 4y ago
hintymad 4y ago
The gist of the draft is that it is not constitution that protects the right of abortion. Instead, it's up to each state to decide what to do. I'm not sure why people are so upset about it, as the SCOTUS simply returns power to the states. Isn't the real power of the US political system is that people trust local government most and that local government has a lot more power compared to other countries?
- philjohn 4y ago
  Because some states lawmakers are unaware that ectopic pregnancy is a thing that will kill both mother and foetus if not handled as a medical emergency (Tennessee)
- mcphage 4y ago
  > Isn't the real power of the US political system is that people trust local government most What? No.
imtemplain 4y ago
skissane 4y ago
> 2) Weaken the mandate of the Supreme Court, and destroy any trust people have in it. The High Court of Australia is a far less controversial institution than the Supreme Court of the United States, arguably significantly more trusted – precisely because its justices (unlike their American counterparts) try very hard to stay out of controversial social and political issues and prefer (with occasional exceptions) to stick to deciding boring legal technicalities instead. No doubt it is easier for them to do so, given how little Australia's constitution has to say about individual rights–but I think if you gave the High Court of Australia the US constitution to interpret, they'd interpret its individual rights in a similarly dry, narrow and literalistic way. It is decades too late for the US Supreme Court to unanimously adopt the same strategy; now that strategy gets labelled as "conservative"/"right-wing"/etc when in Australia it is viewed as politically netural. Australia has no constitutional right to abortion, and yet it has a liberal abortion regime nationwide – which was attained state-by-state, through a combination of state legislation and state court decisions. The federal legislative and executive branches mostly avoided the issue, and the federal courts (to the best of my knowledge) stayed out of it completely. It is much harder to make a big political deal out of something which is a state-by-state issue than when it gets decided at the national level. Activist/lobby groups (on either side of the debate) thrive on the national media and attention of federal politicians, both sides would be weaker if it had been a purely state-level debate. I think, if Roe v Wade had never happened, most American states would have moved to a liberal abortion regime with time (maybe with a handful of conservative holdouts), but it would have been a far less heated political and social issue. I think it is very likely that, the abortion law regime post-Roe v Wade's overturn, is going to be much more restrictive (in many states) than it would have been in the same year in a timeline in which Roe v Wade never happened to begin with.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > I think, if Roe v Wade had never happened, most American states would have moved to a liberal abortion regime with time (maybe with a handful of conservative holdouts), but it would have been a far less heated political and social issue. I think it is very likely that, the abortion law regime post-Roe v Wade's overturn, is going to be much more restrictive (in many states) than it would have been in the same year in a timeline in which Roe v Wade never happened to begin with. I broadly agree. IIRC, Roe liberalized abortion by fiat shortly after a handful of states did. That totally fried the normal political/social change process and pissed off a boatload of people, which got us where we are today. Liberals got what they want, but at a much steeper cost that if they'd been more patient.

by voz_ 4y ago

gadders 4y ago

I realise that (1) is from Freakonomics, but I can't help thinking there could (or should be) be better ways to stop unwanted pregnancies turning into criminals than aborting the foetus.

jimbob45 4y ago

I’d heavily challenge you on #2. For fifty years, every SCOTUS nominee has been weighed against their opinion on Roe v Wade. It’s high time to relegate that decision to the legislative branch so that we can more wisely seat new justices based on a wider variety of opinions.

cmurf 4y ago
Congress should pass a right to privacy law, and repass the Equality Amendment. Not a dime of money need be spent convincing blue state voters, spend it in red states that ratified the first attempt at the Equality Amendment.

waelkjlkj4t 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

4 sounds like hyperbole, but Ohio is now in the process of specifically banning abortion in rape cases.

chomp 4y ago
Texas already banned it, no exclusions for rape and incest. Greg Abbott says it's fine because he's going to "eliminate all rapists". https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/texas-gov-abbott-defends-new-abortion-law-vows-eliminate-all-n1278648 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/texas-gov-abb...
- Blammar 4y ago
  I'm wondering if abbott (he's not worth capitalizing) is going to do that by redefining the meaning of rape in Manly Texas...
  - jen20 4y ago
    Greg Abbott is hardly a stellar definition of masculinity by any stretch of any imagination.
- annexrichmond 4y ago
  From a minute of googling this isn't the full picture. Abortion in Texas is legal up to the point where there is a "detected heart beat", supposedly around 6 weeks.
  - JustResign 4y ago
    How long do you think it takes for a woman to know she is pregnant?
hotpotamus 4y ago

hintymad 4y ago

The gist of the draft is that it is not constitution that protects the right of abortion. Instead, it's up to each state to decide what to do. I'm not sure why people are so upset about it, as the SCOTUS simply returns power to the states. Isn't the real power of the US political system is that people trust local government most and that local government has a lot more power compared to other countries?

philjohn 4y ago
Because some states lawmakers are unaware that ectopic pregnancy is a thing that will kill both mother and foetus if not handled as a medical emergency (Tennessee)
mcphage 4y ago
> Isn't the real power of the US political system is that people trust local government most What? No.

imtemplain 4y ago

skissane 4y ago

> 2) Weaken the mandate of the Supreme Court, and destroy any trust people have in it. The High Court of Australia is a far less controversial institution than the Supreme Court of the United States, arguably significantly more trusted – precisely because its justices (unlike their American counterparts) try very hard to stay out of controversial social and political issues and prefer (with occasional exceptions) to stick to deciding boring legal technicalities instead. No doubt it is easier for them to do so, given how little Australia's constitution has to say about individual rights–but I think if you gave the High Court of Australia the US constitution to interpret, they'd interpret its individual rights in a similarly dry, narrow and literalistic way. It is decades too late for the US Supreme Court to unanimously adopt the same strategy; now that strategy gets labelled as "conservative"/"right-wing"/etc when in Australia it is viewed as politically netural. Australia has no constitutional right to abortion, and yet it has a liberal abortion regime nationwide – which was attained state-by-state, through a combination of state legislation and state court decisions. The federal legislative and executive branches mostly avoided the issue, and the federal courts (to the best of my knowledge) stayed out of it completely. It is much harder to make a big political deal out of something which is a state-by-state issue than when it gets decided at the national level. Activist/lobby groups (on either side of the debate) thrive on the national media and attention of federal politicians, both sides would be weaker if it had been a purely state-level debate. I think, if Roe v Wade had never happened, most American states would have moved to a liberal abortion regime with time (maybe with a handful of conservative holdouts), but it would have been a far less heated political and social issue. I think it is very likely that, the abortion law regime post-Roe v Wade's overturn, is going to be much more restrictive (in many states) than it would have been in the same year in a timeline in which Roe v Wade never happened to begin with.

tablespoon 4y ago
> I think, if Roe v Wade had never happened, most American states would have moved to a liberal abortion regime with time (maybe with a handful of conservative holdouts), but it would have been a far less heated political and social issue. I think it is very likely that, the abortion law regime post-Roe v Wade's overturn, is going to be much more restrictive (in many states) than it would have been in the same year in a timeline in which Roe v Wade never happened to begin with. I broadly agree. IIRC, Roe liberalized abortion by fiat shortly after a handful of states did. That totally fried the normal political/social change process and pissed off a boatload of people, which got us where we are today. Liberals got what they want, but at a much steeper cost that if they'd been more patient.