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That's... still a firing, no? What it's not, is a lay-off.

robonerd 4y ago
The 'he' in "he was terminated with cause" is not referring to Gebru, but rather to Chatterjee. That Chatterjee was fired is seemingly not in dispute, but there was a lot of disagreement on HN over whether Gebru was fired or quit (she offered an ultimatum, which Google accepted.)
- brimble 4y ago
  Ah, OK, sorry, I misunderstood the context.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dekhn 4y ago
People argued about this a bunch. here's a simple summary that is consistent with the reality: Google (Jeff's docs) says that Timnit offered her resignation (over the paper withdrawl demand and a refusal to let Timnit confront her internal reviewers) and Megan accepted it. In reality, Megan terminated Timnit for cause, but used Timnit's offer to resign against her. At google, resignations are normally triggered by the employee explicitly resigning in a system, but experienced leaders at Google like Megan know how to get around this. I spoke to a wide range of managers at Google afterwards and the most commonly expressed opinion was "I'm amazed that Megan did that, it normally takes at least a year to fire individuals". What Jeff did led to a significant exodus of Google researchers (including some very preeminent ones) and Zoubin has to do all the cleanup.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  I mean, if you say "do X or I quit" and the company responds "we're not doing X, bye" is it incorrect to say that the employee quit? That's the situation here, Gebru issued demands and said she'd quit if they weren't met. Google said, "we accept your resignation".
  - dekhn 4y ago
    Yes, that's not a resignation. At google, to technically resign involves filling out a form on a website, it's not something you can verbally state to your (manager's) manager. Again, Google can still say this and probably even thinks internally that's what happened, but having resigned twice from Google, that's not how it really works.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure if you say to your manager "I quit" and stop showing up to work, regardless of what internet forms you fill out, it's a resignation. The fact that Gebru gave her resignation in the form of an ultimatum rather than whatever website form you're talking about is a pedantic point. "I resign if you don't do X." "We're not doing X, we accept your resignation." This is a resignation the way I understand it.
      - bluefirebrand 4y ago
        > "I resign if you don't do X." > "We're not doing X, we accept your resignation." This approach from her managers can be criticized because it immediately closes the door on the possibility of her changing her mind and walking things back. However, it sounds like she was causing a lot of internal problems so perhaps they were already working to get rid of her. Accepting the implied resignation may have just been expedient, and saved the company a bunch of severance money.
        abduhl 4y ago
        You can certainly criticize Google for taking someone at their word when that person issues an ultimatum, but then you’re tacitly admitting that the person offering the ultimatum is approaching the negotiation in bad faith. Google should not have to assume its employees are acting in bad faith when they communicate internally, especially when it comes to the future of that employee’s career. The real question for your framing is: Should Google have to say, “ok that’s it for real this time, no take-backsies”? I think that google should never have to say this any time someone says “or else I quit” because the threat of quitting tells us that they’re not willing to continue operating within Google. I honestly don’t see the reasoning behind drawing the line anywhere else.

The 'he' in "he was terminated with cause" is not referring to Gebru, but rather to Chatterjee. That Chatterjee was fired is seemingly not in dispute, but there was a lot of disagreement on HN over whether Gebru was fired or quit (she offered an ultimatum, which Google accepted.)

brimble 4y ago
Ah, OK, sorry, I misunderstood the context.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dekhn 4y ago

People argued about this a bunch. here's a simple summary that is consistent with the reality: Google (Jeff's docs) says that Timnit offered her resignation (over the paper withdrawl demand and a refusal to let Timnit confront her internal reviewers) and Megan accepted it. In reality, Megan terminated Timnit for cause, but used Timnit's offer to resign against her. At google, resignations are normally triggered by the employee explicitly resigning in a system, but experienced leaders at Google like Megan know how to get around this. I spoke to a wide range of managers at Google afterwards and the most commonly expressed opinion was "I'm amazed that Megan did that, it normally takes at least a year to fire individuals". What Jeff did led to a significant exodus of Google researchers (including some very preeminent ones) and Zoubin has to do all the cleanup.

Manuel_D 4y ago
I mean, if you say "do X or I quit" and the company responds "we're not doing X, bye" is it incorrect to say that the employee quit? That's the situation here, Gebru issued demands and said she'd quit if they weren't met. Google said, "we accept your resignation".
- dekhn 4y ago
  Yes, that's not a resignation. At google, to technically resign involves filling out a form on a website, it's not something you can verbally state to your (manager's) manager. Again, Google can still say this and probably even thinks internally that's what happened, but having resigned twice from Google, that's not how it really works.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure if you say to your manager "I quit" and stop showing up to work, regardless of what internet forms you fill out, it's a resignation. The fact that Gebru gave her resignation in the form of an ultimatum rather than whatever website form you're talking about is a pedantic point. "I resign if you don't do X." "We're not doing X, we accept your resignation." This is a resignation the way I understand it.
    - bluefirebrand 4y ago
      > "I resign if you don't do X." > "We're not doing X, we accept your resignation." This approach from her managers can be criticized because it immediately closes the door on the possibility of her changing her mind and walking things back. However, it sounds like she was causing a lot of internal problems so perhaps they were already working to get rid of her. Accepting the implied resignation may have just been expedient, and saved the company a bunch of severance money.
      - abduhl 4y ago
        You can certainly criticize Google for taking someone at their word when that person issues an ultimatum, but then you’re tacitly admitting that the person offering the ultimatum is approaching the negotiation in bad faith. Google should not have to assume its employees are acting in bad faith when they communicate internally, especially when it comes to the future of that employee’s career. The real question for your framing is: Should Google have to say, “ok that’s it for real this time, no take-backsies”? I think that google should never have to say this any time someone says “or else I quit” because the threat of quitting tells us that they’re not willing to continue operating within Google. I honestly don’t see the reasoning behind drawing the line anywhere else.