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This and the laundry list of reviews from Europe should make an interesting WWDC. However, I am growing concern in the security risk these “anticompetitive” sta

by theklr 4y ago

This and the laundry list of reviews from Europe should make an interesting WWDC. However, I am growing concern in the security risk these “anticompetitive” statements are. While I'd like idea of a more open iPhone, I also understand the technical aptitude of majority of their customers. This feels like a potential opening for more exploits where the iCloud leak could look like child’s play.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
yohannparis 4y ago
To be fair both points of view are valid and easy to agree upon. Apple makes choices for its customers, though, when the EU government makes choices for its citizen. And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Apple couldn't open the NFC payment API & technologies first to make sure the Apple Pay technology image wasn't tarnished by poor and less secure competitive payment solutions on iOS. But now, they have no excuses to allow competition. Especially if they cannot use the Apple Pay trademarks.
- Despegar 4y ago
  >And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Well no. If they're "wrong" then they'll lose the case when it heads to the General Court and/or the ECJ.
  - yohannparis 4y ago
    I meant "wrong" in a moral or philosophical point of view, not in the illegal meaning.
- ntkachov 4y ago
  I think the EU had chip and tap to pay before apple. So the over there Apple looks like it implemented a solution and then blocked competitors from using the platform with already established payment terminals. In the US, the optics are very different because Google, Samsung and others came way after apple took the reigns and drove adoption of tap to pay.
  - agloeregrets 4y ago
    Google actually got there prior to Apple in the US with Wallet, but then played the typical google branding mess and got caught up in that insane carrier game that went on (can you believe we had a payment app called ISIS?!) so they lost any ground there lol.
greazy 4y ago
Are you suggesting apple users are stupid or easy to fool? Also how does increasing payment options lead to security risk? The android ecosystem is fine with multiple payment methods.
- falcolas 4y ago
  All users are, at some point, stupid and easy to fool. Proof of this is as simple as looking at the recent spat of “I’m a security expert and I got scammed” headlines.
- kyrra 4y ago
  Googler, opinions are my own. I work on payments. Google does not allow apps within the app store to present their own payment method, except for Spotify which is part of some trial right now. I could definitely see shady apps within the stores collecting payment info from users that then use those cards as if they were still on. If people get used of apps collecting payment information on all different kinds of UX, they will likely be more willing to type in their information into any app, leading to a higher chance of stolen payment information.
  - kyrra 4y ago
    To add a late caveat to my previous statement. There are cases around physical goods where Google does not take a cut for enough purchases ( and allows these companies to use their own payment processors). This applies to things like Uber and Lyft, and buying things through the Amazon app that gets shipped to.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding the EU's problem with Apple Pay, because like Google, Apple's branding around this is stupid. The EU has a problem with Apple forcing everyone who wants to make contactless payments over NFC to use Apple Pay by not giving any other app access to the required NFC APIs, unlike Android which does allow alternatives to Google Pay. This has nothing to do with the "pay online with Google/Apple Pay" or "manage your Android/iOS app subscriptions with Google/Apple Pay", besides the fact that the service is named the same and uses the same underlying bank card data you give it.
apexalpha 4y ago
What kind of security issues are you thinking about? Because Android has had a freely accessible NFC chip (+ secure element) since forever, and I can't think of one example where something bad happened. Also, Google Pay co-exists on Android next to other companies' apps. So you don't have to stop using Apple Pay if you don't want to.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  >Also, Google Pay co-exists on Android next to other companies' apps. So you don't have to stop using Apple Pay if you don't want to. My bank didn't have any mobile payments on iOS for the longest time because they wanted to do payments via their own app, so it was only available on Android devices. Eventually, they caved in and added Apple Pay, since there was no other way forwards on iOS. Looks like they've also added Google Pay now. While I technically like the idea of opening the NFC to third parties, I'm also worried that this will incentivise banks to not use a service with a good UX like Apple Pay.
  - apexalpha 4y ago
    This could be the case. But then Apple would simply have to offer better terms to lure in customers (banks). Just like any other company offering a paid service. Having a good UX is part of that. Nowadays they can basically charge whatever they want since they've eliminated all competition through software restrictions in iOS.
    - tpush 4y ago
      The better terms to lure banks all involve worse terms for the actual end user, which is the entire problem here. I'd much rather have Apple force all companies into a user/privacy-friendly policy than a race to the bottom where each company exfiltrates as much transaction data as possible by using their own apps for NFC payments.
      - withinboredom 4y ago
        As opposed to just Apple having that information doing God Knows What? They say they “care about privacy” but I have good reason to think they actually don’t (based on convos with some data scientists that worked there).

by theklr 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

yohannparis 4y ago

To be fair both points of view are valid and easy to agree upon. Apple makes choices for its customers, though, when the EU government makes choices for its citizen. And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Apple couldn't open the NFC payment API & technologies first to make sure the Apple Pay technology image wasn't tarnished by poor and less secure competitive payment solutions on iOS. But now, they have no excuses to allow competition. Especially if they cannot use the Apple Pay trademarks.

Despegar 4y ago
>And even if the EU might be wrong, Apple must comply. Well no. If they're "wrong" then they'll lose the case when it heads to the General Court and/or the ECJ.
- yohannparis 4y ago
  I meant "wrong" in a moral or philosophical point of view, not in the illegal meaning.
ntkachov 4y ago
I think the EU had chip and tap to pay before apple. So the over there Apple looks like it implemented a solution and then blocked competitors from using the platform with already established payment terminals. In the US, the optics are very different because Google, Samsung and others came way after apple took the reigns and drove adoption of tap to pay.
- agloeregrets 4y ago
  Google actually got there prior to Apple in the US with Wallet, but then played the typical google branding mess and got caught up in that insane carrier game that went on (can you believe we had a payment app called ISIS?!) so they lost any ground there lol.

greazy 4y ago

Are you suggesting apple users are stupid or easy to fool? Also how does increasing payment options lead to security risk? The android ecosystem is fine with multiple payment methods.

falcolas 4y ago
All users are, at some point, stupid and easy to fool. Proof of this is as simple as looking at the recent spat of “I’m a security expert and I got scammed” headlines.
kyrra 4y ago
Googler, opinions are my own. I work on payments. Google does not allow apps within the app store to present their own payment method, except for Spotify which is part of some trial right now. I could definitely see shady apps within the stores collecting payment info from users that then use those cards as if they were still on. If people get used of apps collecting payment information on all different kinds of UX, they will likely be more willing to type in their information into any app, leading to a higher chance of stolen payment information.
- kyrra 4y ago
  To add a late caveat to my previous statement. There are cases around physical goods where Google does not take a cut for enough purchases ( and allows these companies to use their own payment processors). This applies to things like Uber and Lyft, and buying things through the Amazon app that gets shipped to.
- sofixa 4y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding the EU's problem with Apple Pay, because like Google, Apple's branding around this is stupid. The EU has a problem with Apple forcing everyone who wants to make contactless payments over NFC to use Apple Pay by not giving any other app access to the required NFC APIs, unlike Android which does allow alternatives to Google Pay. This has nothing to do with the "pay online with Google/Apple Pay" or "manage your Android/iOS app subscriptions with Google/Apple Pay", besides the fact that the service is named the same and uses the same underlying bank card data you give it.

apexalpha 4y ago

What kind of security issues are you thinking about? Because Android has had a freely accessible NFC chip (+ secure element) since forever, and I can't think of one example where something bad happened. Also, Google Pay co-exists on Android next to other companies' apps. So you don't have to stop using Apple Pay if you don't want to.

Hamuko 4y ago
>Also, Google Pay co-exists on Android next to other companies' apps. So you don't have to stop using Apple Pay if you don't want to. My bank didn't have any mobile payments on iOS for the longest time because they wanted to do payments via their own app, so it was only available on Android devices. Eventually, they caved in and added Apple Pay, since there was no other way forwards on iOS. Looks like they've also added Google Pay now. While I technically like the idea of opening the NFC to third parties, I'm also worried that this will incentivise banks to not use a service with a good UX like Apple Pay.
- apexalpha 4y ago
  This could be the case. But then Apple would simply have to offer better terms to lure in customers (banks). Just like any other company offering a paid service. Having a good UX is part of that. Nowadays they can basically charge whatever they want since they've eliminated all competition through software restrictions in iOS.
  - tpush 4y ago
    The better terms to lure banks all involve worse terms for the actual end user, which is the entire problem here. I'd much rather have Apple force all companies into a user/privacy-friendly policy than a race to the bottom where each company exfiltrates as much transaction data as possible by using their own apps for NFC payments.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      As opposed to just Apple having that information doing God Knows What? They say they “care about privacy” but I have good reason to think they actually don’t (based on convos with some data scientists that worked there).