4 ms·

This is not how design process works. There is not single genius outputing some designs that get implemented. There are teams of people making and testing thous

This is not how design process works. There is not single genius outputing some designs that get implemented. There are teams of people making and testing thousands of variations. Dont think these teams dont know about the issues with their designs. Theyve dealt and solved questions we cant imagine. Ive as design lead already is the editor. Thats job of art director. What Jobs has done for Ive is that he probably pushed many other departments to do what Ive and his team came up with. Its very likely Ive “fails” are organisation issues and his inability to push things to completion. I am not a big fan of Ive but Apple turned their trajectory completely around because of designs comming from department he was leading. And the big turn around the old iMac was comming mostly solely from him. I wouldnt give so much credit to Jobs in same way as i wouldnt give so much credit to Ive. They are just on top.

Closi 5y ago
I think OP means that without the influence/editing of others this led to asthetic-centric thinking rather than including the right balance of product/function-centric thinking, and the 'editing' was that Jobs could influence him to ensure the right balance was in the products.
- MBCook 5y ago
  That’s an excellent way of putting it.
  - omnimus 5y ago
    No you can read my other comment. I dont agree
- omnimus 5y ago
  And I think this is very narrow view and not how it works. Industrial designers are not some artsy bitsy people who try to draw beautiful things. They are mostly engineers who try to deal with people problems of the product. If your experience with designers are some UI juniors who got the job after being in the field for less than 2 years it might seem like it. But designers doing those products are really juggling hard problems and requirements that other departments give them. Everything is a tradeoff and they are the ones 100% on side of usability. I am sick of this perception that that products made by engineers are functional and products made by designers are pretty. Its designers who make it people functional and its engineers who whip out the specs and clever tech solutions. The aesthetic is sideproduct.
  - Closi 5y ago
    > Everything is a tradeoff and [designers] are the ones 100% on side of usability Designers shouldn't be just 100% on the side of usability, they should be balancing multiple factors such as cost, aesthetic, durability, portability, accessibility, ease of manufacturing as well as usability (there are many more). All of these things have trade-offs - making a product more durable might increase cost, making it easier to manufacture might hurt it's aesthetic, adding more ports might improve functionality but decrease the aesthetic and increase cost etc. The job of a designer is to balance all of these factors. The argument is that the balance Jony had was skewed more towards aesthetic which resulted in trade-offs in other directions. > The aesthetic is a side product. IMO the aesthetic definetly isn't a sideproduct for Apple - it's clear that aesthetic is a core part of the design process (see the iMac G3, G4, Trashcan Mac, latest iMac, Homepod e.t.c. where a significant portion of product engineering is driven by the external aesthetic to a large extent). The design of the iMac G4 was no accidental side product of the tech. The criticism of Ive is that he weighted aesthetic too high at times, which for example resulted in an obsession for product-thinness which compromised the usability/durability of the keyboard, and of un-obtruded sides which led to the removal of ports and a charge-port on the bottom of the magic mouse. You can still be a great designer and have a bias towards form over function - and arguably the best designs are done where there is some sort of creative tension between form and function (as tension often breeds creative solutions to release the tension).
    - longtimelistnr 5y ago
      Yes it is true designers take all those factors into account. However in this situation likely products were developed fully and then stripped feature by feature in requested revisions from non design departments. That’s what I’ve read typically happens in corporate design environments when the rest of the company shifts focus to general cost cuts.
    - omnimus 5y ago
      We will never know how things were decided. Ive might have been idiot forcing thinest macbooks and ports on bottom of a mouse. Or these things were requirement from somewhere (make thinest laptop, make mouse without ugly ports thats gonna be cheap). And final solutions were the best tradeoff. By sideproduct i meant that nobody starts with aesthetics. It starts with the tech and its limits. Good designers can whip most things and shapes to look good. I just dont think Jobs was mythical design hero because he took typography class.

Closi 5y ago

I think OP means that without the influence/editing of others this led to asthetic-centric thinking rather than including the right balance of product/function-centric thinking, and the 'editing' was that Jobs could influence him to ensure the right balance was in the products.

MBCook 5y ago
That’s an excellent way of putting it.
- omnimus 5y ago
  No you can read my other comment. I dont agree
omnimus 5y ago
And I think this is very narrow view and not how it works. Industrial designers are not some artsy bitsy people who try to draw beautiful things. They are mostly engineers who try to deal with people problems of the product. If your experience with designers are some UI juniors who got the job after being in the field for less than 2 years it might seem like it. But designers doing those products are really juggling hard problems and requirements that other departments give them. Everything is a tradeoff and they are the ones 100% on side of usability. I am sick of this perception that that products made by engineers are functional and products made by designers are pretty. Its designers who make it people functional and its engineers who whip out the specs and clever tech solutions. The aesthetic is sideproduct.
- Closi 5y ago
  > Everything is a tradeoff and [designers] are the ones 100% on side of usability Designers shouldn't be just 100% on the side of usability, they should be balancing multiple factors such as cost, aesthetic, durability, portability, accessibility, ease of manufacturing as well as usability (there are many more). All of these things have trade-offs - making a product more durable might increase cost, making it easier to manufacture might hurt it's aesthetic, adding more ports might improve functionality but decrease the aesthetic and increase cost etc. The job of a designer is to balance all of these factors. The argument is that the balance Jony had was skewed more towards aesthetic which resulted in trade-offs in other directions. > The aesthetic is a side product. IMO the aesthetic definetly isn't a sideproduct for Apple - it's clear that aesthetic is a core part of the design process (see the iMac G3, G4, Trashcan Mac, latest iMac, Homepod e.t.c. where a significant portion of product engineering is driven by the external aesthetic to a large extent). The design of the iMac G4 was no accidental side product of the tech. The criticism of Ive is that he weighted aesthetic too high at times, which for example resulted in an obsession for product-thinness which compromised the usability/durability of the keyboard, and of un-obtruded sides which led to the removal of ports and a charge-port on the bottom of the magic mouse. You can still be a great designer and have a bias towards form over function - and arguably the best designs are done where there is some sort of creative tension between form and function (as tension often breeds creative solutions to release the tension).
  - longtimelistnr 5y ago
    Yes it is true designers take all those factors into account. However in this situation likely products were developed fully and then stripped feature by feature in requested revisions from non design departments. That’s what I’ve read typically happens in corporate design environments when the rest of the company shifts focus to general cost cuts.
  - omnimus 5y ago
    We will never know how things were decided. Ive might have been idiot forcing thinest macbooks and ports on bottom of a mouse. Or these things were requirement from somewhere (make thinest laptop, make mouse without ugly ports thats gonna be cheap). And final solutions were the best tradeoff. By sideproduct i meant that nobody starts with aesthetics. It starts with the tech and its limits. Good designers can whip most things and shapes to look good. I just dont think Jobs was mythical design hero because he took typography class.