7 ms·

Pre-Code Hollywood

78 points by js2 5y ago

at_a_remove 5y ago
Some of the Pre-Code films are very interesting, like Red-Headed Woman. While I am not a fan of the Hays Code, the restrictions did give rise to some interesting artistic circumlocutions, such as "gunsel."
ArtWomb 5y ago
Ah, thanks for posting! It's relevant for hackers because all early stage media tech has the same "wild west" early days property. You can catch a few like Design for Living and Rain on youtube, and indeed the subject matter is quite shocking at times. But always with the "moral" ending. The quality is not great. Backlog at LoC digital preservation unit is like 100k+ works. Not to mention lack of funding for storage, serving, etc ;)
ipnon 5y ago
Slavoj Zizek frequently claims that Hays Code censorship was more restrictive than political censorship in the Soviet Union. Soviet filmmakers could do practically anything as long as it didn't implicate the Communist Party. If Hays Code films were the only evidence of humanity aliens would think that babies were made by sharp glances in the presence of bedroom doors.
CSSer 5y ago
For those who are interested in watching some of these films, I highly recommend checking out the Criterion Channel's "Pre-code Paramount" collection[0] that was released as part of the March lineup[1]. The intro film essay by Imogen Sara Smith is fantastic. The collection includes Mae West's brazenly frank dialogue about sex, a movie with a ménage à trois, a movie with a musical number about marijuana, and Marlena Dietrich's iconic crossdressing in Morocco. There's more too, but really too much to cover here! [0] https://www.criterionchannel.com/pre-code-paramount https://www.criterionchannel.com/pre-code-paramount [1] https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/7707-the-criterion-channel-s-march-2022-lineup https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/7707-the-criterion-c...
- tclancy 5y ago
  Seconded. The Code also ruins a bunch of noir type collections from the 40s and 50s because the bad guys have to die and the cops are infallible. I love the Preston Sturges films.
- ArtWomb 5y ago
  MoMA retrospective of Mae West from 4 years ago was a real re-appraisal for me! Dames, Janes, Dolls, and Canaries Women Stars of the Pre-Code Era https://www.moma.org/calendar/film/5434 https://www.moma.org/calendar/film/5434
js2 5y ago
The wikipedia page on the code has a photo illustrating the code. It would make a fantastic movie poster, but no such movie could be made then: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thou_Shalt_Not_-_Whitey_Schafer_-_1940.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thou_Shalt_Not_-_Whi...
oscargrouch 5y ago
Watching pre-code hollywood you can see how the movies from the US from that era were not far away from the european movies in terms of brightness. Once i knew about this i understood why most of the hollywood movies turned out into the brain damages in comparison to the european cinema.. this together with plot based movies + capitalistic objectives being considered above artistic values and originality, turned things worse. The only reason some US movies have artistic values is or because the film-makers are defiant of the system, rule-breakers, managing to bend the system into their favor or the money-making machine captivated some talented foreign film-makers.. But of course giving the system keep draining and eating itself, its never enough, and there are no roots nor a organic and sustainable growth. But the system works in a sort of vampiresque form, so once there are no more talent to suck, or the talents are not "selling out" anymore, all the system goes down with time.. I love to watch the cultural and cinema areas because there are a lot of lessons to learn from the perspective of technology, because our fields are not that much different once you see the patterns.. I always tough that the US capitalism need some sort of balance to not always become imbalanced because its giving too much focus on profits. Technology companies that were once inventive turn into to "give more profits to the shareholder" machines and eventually lose what actually gave them the edge anyway. Apple for instance didn't learn its lesson and its repeating the same errors of the past unfortunately.. I know it was about "pre-code" and "what it have to do with it?" right? But i focus on this to learn about how technology can blossom and other controversial things like "what the nazis did right" (*) in terms of technology to understand more about this.. (*) - My current answer to this is that the nazi were there just in time to collect all the science that have been promoted since the XIX century. So basically the nazis were there to collect and use all that scientific prowess to forge their war machine (of course they were also masters at giving people meaning and big goals/dream big).
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I'm curious why you think "capitalistic objectives" mean bad films. After all, capitalistic objectives means making movies that people are willing to pay to see. Wouldn't that mean better movies?
  - 5y ago
jshprentz 5y ago
Kevin Wentink has compiled excerpts from pre-code movies into a series of short thematic videos[1]. Most of his videos contain clips from a dozen or more movies. They have inspired me to track down many of the source films. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/PreCodeHollywoodClassicClipsbyKevinWentink/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/PreCodeHollywoodClassicClipsbyKevi...
WalterBright 5y ago
TCM has run a bunch of pre-Code movies. "Gold Diggers of 1933" is a fun example.
jollybean 5y ago
'The Code' is there now and just as strong. Netflix sends scripts back and tells them what to include, and what not to, and everyone knows the vast scope of things that cannot be said or represented. Someone ought to write an article explaining the 'de facto' code for every decade. It blows my mind that Netflix, Hulut have so, many, titles - so much more content - and almost none of it is boundary pushing or exotic. Surely a few great series, but they were 'within safe range'.
- briandear 5y ago
  Netflix’s Cuties was a bit boundary pushing. But to your point, the real “code” these days is “don’t offend China.”
- brnt 5y ago
  The code is: "earn money/eyeballs". Like fashion, it is confined to variations on a theme which only shifts ever so gradually that you need to zoom out to a generation or two to witness any significant change. I couldn't tell you what changed in fashion in the last decade, but I can show you a 90ies look, an 80ies outfit, one from the seventies, something from the 1770s, etc. People want the same but different, and this imposes exactly such invisible 'codes' as you point out.
kingcharles 5y ago
It's a fascinating era. The stories my grandmother told me of the parties she would attend in the '20s and '30s were unreal. Granny was a wild one. The amount of booze and drugs everyone would do, the debauchery, girls getting stuff slipped in their drinks and getting raped. I think pre-code films are just a reflection of the reality of the times.
e40 5y ago
Yikes, that first image is definitely NSFW.
Supermancho 5y ago
I'll save you some time: > What is pre-Code Hollywood? The quickest definition is this: “pre-Code” refers to an era in motion pictures from the arrival of sound (aka ‘talkies’) in 1927 to the mandatory enforcement of the Motion Picture Production Code in July 1934. This era is notable for while being censored, it is not as severely censored as the films that follow that July 1934 date.
- CrazedGeek 5y ago
  It’s also commonly referred to as the Hays code. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code
- js2 5y ago
  I actually meant to link to this page: https://pre-code.com/what-is-pre-code-hollywood/ https://pre-code.com/what-is-pre-code-hollywood/ Which besides answering the literal question, explains what motivated the code and why pre-code movies are worth watching. The site in general contains a lot of valuable content about these movies.
  - dang 5y ago
    Ok, we changed to that above from https://pre-code.com/ https://pre-code.com/. Thanks!
- syspec 5y ago
  It's not really saving time, this was an enjoyable article worth reading. That's a bit like telling us the ending of a movie as a way of saving us time.
  - Supermancho 5y ago
    > That's a bit like telling us the ending of a movie as a way of saving us time The answer is not on the page linked and the topic is obscure. The "ending" to an "enjoyable article" is not the answer to the title question. It's obvious why "Pre-Code" is contextually confusing.
lultimouomo 5y ago
It is interesting that Catholicism is deemed to have had such a big role in the drafting of the Hays code; I didn't know that. To me, as a European, the Hays code seems like the prototypical WASP thing - in the 30s US had prohibition, after all, and to this day it is stereotypically considered a "prude" country compared to the EU, where Catholicism is more widespread.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  The catholics stepped in when the protestants lost their nerve. The catholic church at that time had institutional power, projected from the concentrated ethnic neighborhoods in cities like Philadelphia. Cardinal Krol could tell his diocese not to go watch movies, and they'd do it, and it would really hurt the studios, who were deeply in debt. Additionally, Bank of America was, at that time, in Catholic hands. This institutional power was lost when the catholics moved to suburbia post WW2.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Is there a good book on the history of Catholics in the US? It's always been so odd to me that despite Catholics being such a large group globally and historically, they've never seemed to me to be very significant in US history. In fact, one of the most memorable mentions of them I remember from growing up was in some movie or textbook, in which the KKK was described as being opposed to Jewish and Catholic people in addition to black people.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      They have influence in the areas where Catholic diaspora settled. A lot of Catholic people that came to the US were lower class in terms of social, economic and racial classes. Irish and Italian people, for example, didn't exactly have the same economic or social power, or racial caste, as Anglo-Protestants. These days you'll see Catholics in power in some areas, like multiple New York governors and so on.
syntheweave 5y ago
Reading this, and then reviewing the Code's specifics, I realized that the Code and Hollywood film noir's heyday come in tandem: "No sympathy for crimes and criminals; all crimes must be punished" is a specification that naturally produces the majority of noir plots, which in aiming to depict crime and violence must push the characters into tragic no-win situations.
qgin 5y ago
I often think about the earlier days of the internet as a parallel to the pre-code Hollywood era
- ipnon 5y ago
  This gives me some hope in the face of the seemingly endless proposed bills to censor the Web. Information seeks the light. A free Internet will prove more useful to society than marginal gains to business and security guaranteed by mandatory moderation.
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    Well… I don’t think the web will ever, ever again be like the web of 1993.

78 points by js2 5y ago

Some of the Pre-Code films are very interesting, like Red-Headed Woman. While I am not a fan of the Hays Code, the restrictions did give rise to some interesting artistic circumlocutions, such as "gunsel."

ArtWomb 5y ago

Ah, thanks for posting! It's relevant for hackers because all early stage media tech has the same "wild west" early days property. You can catch a few like Design for Living and Rain on youtube, and indeed the subject matter is quite shocking at times. But always with the "moral" ending. The quality is not great. Backlog at LoC digital preservation unit is like 100k+ works. Not to mention lack of funding for storage, serving, etc ;)

ipnon 5y ago

Slavoj Zizek frequently claims that Hays Code censorship was more restrictive than political censorship in the Soviet Union. Soviet filmmakers could do practically anything as long as it didn't implicate the Communist Party. If Hays Code films were the only evidence of humanity aliens would think that babies were made by sharp glances in the presence of bedroom doors.

CSSer 5y ago

For those who are interested in watching some of these films, I highly recommend checking out the Criterion Channel's "Pre-code Paramount" collection[0] that was released as part of the March lineup[1]. The intro film essay by Imogen Sara Smith is fantastic. The collection includes Mae West's brazenly frank dialogue about sex, a movie with a ménage à trois, a movie with a musical number about marijuana, and Marlena Dietrich's iconic crossdressing in Morocco. There's more too, but really too much to cover here! [0] https://www.criterionchannel.com/pre-code-paramount https://www.criterionchannel.com/pre-code-paramount [1] https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/7707-the-criterion-channel-s-march-2022-lineup https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/7707-the-criterion-c...

tclancy 5y ago
Seconded. The Code also ruins a bunch of noir type collections from the 40s and 50s because the bad guys have to die and the cops are infallible. I love the Preston Sturges films.
ArtWomb 5y ago
MoMA retrospective of Mae West from 4 years ago was a real re-appraisal for me! Dames, Janes, Dolls, and Canaries Women Stars of the Pre-Code Era https://www.moma.org/calendar/film/5434 https://www.moma.org/calendar/film/5434

js2 5y ago

The wikipedia page on the code has a photo illustrating the code. It would make a fantastic movie poster, but no such movie could be made then: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thou_Shalt_Not_-_Whitey_Schafer_-_1940.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thou_Shalt_Not_-_Whi...

oscargrouch 5y ago

Watching pre-code hollywood you can see how the movies from the US from that era were not far away from the european movies in terms of brightness. Once i knew about this i understood why most of the hollywood movies turned out into the brain damages in comparison to the european cinema.. this together with plot based movies + capitalistic objectives being considered above artistic values and originality, turned things worse. The only reason some US movies have artistic values is or because the film-makers are defiant of the system, rule-breakers, managing to bend the system into their favor or the money-making machine captivated some talented foreign film-makers.. But of course giving the system keep draining and eating itself, its never enough, and there are no roots nor a organic and sustainable growth. But the system works in a sort of vampiresque form, so once there are no more talent to suck, or the talents are not "selling out" anymore, all the system goes down with time.. I love to watch the cultural and cinema areas because there are a lot of lessons to learn from the perspective of technology, because our fields are not that much different once you see the patterns.. I always tough that the US capitalism need some sort of balance to not always become imbalanced because its giving too much focus on profits. Technology companies that were once inventive turn into to "give more profits to the shareholder" machines and eventually lose what actually gave them the edge anyway. Apple for instance didn't learn its lesson and its repeating the same errors of the past unfortunately.. I know it was about "pre-code" and "what it have to do with it?" right? But i focus on this to learn about how technology can blossom and other controversial things like "what the nazis did right" (*) in terms of technology to understand more about this.. (*) - My current answer to this is that the nazi were there just in time to collect all the science that have been promoted since the XIX century. So basically the nazis were there to collect and use all that scientific prowess to forge their war machine (of course they were also masters at giving people meaning and big goals/dream big).

WalterBright 5y ago
I'm curious why you think "capitalistic objectives" mean bad films. After all, capitalistic objectives means making movies that people are willing to pay to see. Wouldn't that mean better movies?
- 5y ago

jshprentz 5y ago

Kevin Wentink has compiled excerpts from pre-code movies into a series of short thematic videos[1]. Most of his videos contain clips from a dozen or more movies. They have inspired me to track down many of the source films. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/PreCodeHollywoodClassicClipsbyKevinWentink/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/PreCodeHollywoodClassicClipsbyKevi...

WalterBright 5y ago

TCM has run a bunch of pre-Code movies. "Gold Diggers of 1933" is a fun example.

jollybean 5y ago

'The Code' is there now and just as strong. Netflix sends scripts back and tells them what to include, and what not to, and everyone knows the vast scope of things that cannot be said or represented. Someone ought to write an article explaining the 'de facto' code for every decade. It blows my mind that Netflix, Hulut have so, many, titles - so much more content - and almost none of it is boundary pushing or exotic. Surely a few great series, but they were 'within safe range'.

briandear 5y ago
Netflix’s Cuties was a bit boundary pushing. But to your point, the real “code” these days is “don’t offend China.”
brnt 5y ago
The code is: "earn money/eyeballs". Like fashion, it is confined to variations on a theme which only shifts ever so gradually that you need to zoom out to a generation or two to witness any significant change. I couldn't tell you what changed in fashion in the last decade, but I can show you a 90ies look, an 80ies outfit, one from the seventies, something from the 1770s, etc. People want the same but different, and this imposes exactly such invisible 'codes' as you point out.

kingcharles 5y ago

It's a fascinating era. The stories my grandmother told me of the parties she would attend in the '20s and '30s were unreal. Granny was a wild one. The amount of booze and drugs everyone would do, the debauchery, girls getting stuff slipped in their drinks and getting raped. I think pre-code films are just a reflection of the reality of the times.

e40 5y ago

Yikes, that first image is definitely NSFW.

Supermancho 5y ago

I'll save you some time: > What is pre-Code Hollywood? The quickest definition is this: “pre-Code” refers to an era in motion pictures from the arrival of sound (aka ‘talkies’) in 1927 to the mandatory enforcement of the Motion Picture Production Code in July 1934. This era is notable for while being censored, it is not as severely censored as the films that follow that July 1934 date.

CrazedGeek 5y ago
It’s also commonly referred to as the Hays code. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code
js2 5y ago
I actually meant to link to this page: https://pre-code.com/what-is-pre-code-hollywood/ https://pre-code.com/what-is-pre-code-hollywood/ Which besides answering the literal question, explains what motivated the code and why pre-code movies are worth watching. The site in general contains a lot of valuable content about these movies.
- dang 5y ago
  Ok, we changed to that above from https://pre-code.com/ https://pre-code.com/. Thanks!
syspec 5y ago
It's not really saving time, this was an enjoyable article worth reading. That's a bit like telling us the ending of a movie as a way of saving us time.
- Supermancho 5y ago
  > That's a bit like telling us the ending of a movie as a way of saving us time The answer is not on the page linked and the topic is obscure. The "ending" to an "enjoyable article" is not the answer to the title question. It's obvious why "Pre-Code" is contextually confusing.

lultimouomo 5y ago

It is interesting that Catholicism is deemed to have had such a big role in the drafting of the Hays code; I didn't know that. To me, as a European, the Hays code seems like the prototypical WASP thing - in the 30s US had prohibition, after all, and to this day it is stereotypically considered a "prude" country compared to the EU, where Catholicism is more widespread.

recursivedoubts 5y ago
The catholics stepped in when the protestants lost their nerve. The catholic church at that time had institutional power, projected from the concentrated ethnic neighborhoods in cities like Philadelphia. Cardinal Krol could tell his diocese not to go watch movies, and they'd do it, and it would really hurt the studios, who were deeply in debt. Additionally, Bank of America was, at that time, in Catholic hands. This institutional power was lost when the catholics moved to suburbia post WW2.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Is there a good book on the history of Catholics in the US? It's always been so odd to me that despite Catholics being such a large group globally and historically, they've never seemed to me to be very significant in US history. In fact, one of the most memorable mentions of them I remember from growing up was in some movie or textbook, in which the KKK was described as being opposed to Jewish and Catholic people in addition to black people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    They have influence in the areas where Catholic diaspora settled. A lot of Catholic people that came to the US were lower class in terms of social, economic and racial classes. Irish and Italian people, for example, didn't exactly have the same economic or social power, or racial caste, as Anglo-Protestants. These days you'll see Catholics in power in some areas, like multiple New York governors and so on.

syntheweave 5y ago

Reading this, and then reviewing the Code's specifics, I realized that the Code and Hollywood film noir's heyday come in tandem: "No sympathy for crimes and criminals; all crimes must be punished" is a specification that naturally produces the majority of noir plots, which in aiming to depict crime and violence must push the characters into tragic no-win situations.

qgin 5y ago

I often think about the earlier days of the internet as a parallel to the pre-code Hollywood era

ipnon 5y ago
This gives me some hope in the face of the seemingly endless proposed bills to censor the Web. Information seeks the light. A free Internet will prove more useful to society than marginal gains to business and security guaranteed by mandatory moderation.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Well… I don’t think the web will ever, ever again be like the web of 1993.