8 ms·

I am one of the brain drain 2 waves ago from mid 90ies. Especially these days I thank my family to have moved from there to USA. I have an uncle who is twice th

I am one of the brain drain 2 waves ago from mid 90ies. Especially these days I thank my family to have moved from there to USA. I have an uncle who is twice the programmer than I am and he had a chance to come bit stayed there because, you know, emigration is rely hard and his girlfriend didn't want to come. Now he's just super stuck in Moscow with mortgage in a modest apartment, wife whose job got killed due to sanctions and two children and unsure that he has energy to make a move. Hope programs like that can help him but he should have moved 20 years ago....

atdrummond 4y ago
What’s his area of speciality?
- danielodievich 4y ago
  He runs an software engineering group in MTS, a big telecom. I think mostly large-scale distributed backend engineering.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Moscow is too expensive: it prices even software developer leads out. Still, I don't think he have any but first world problems.
    - antisthenes 4y ago
      > Moscow is too expensive: it prices even software developer leads out. No, it doesn't. This "woe is me, underpaid all the time" rhetoric from someone with a software dev salary is getting really tiring. Moscow is huge. And Software devs are a small minority of all occupations. Plenty of people afford living in Moscow just fine without anywhere near the level of salary typical of software. Probably the only place in the world that priced out software devs was pre-Covid SV, where you weren't able to work remotely from cheaper accommodations. But that really is a unique location and a self-inflicted CA problem. It's not even a first-world problem. It's more of a middle-upper class spoiled rich brat with a 1% salary problem. The NY alternative for this is "woe is me I can't afford private school for my 6 kids and a 5th ave apartment at the same time"
      - arinlen 4y ago
        > Probably the only place in the world that priced out software devs was pre-Covid SV, where you weren't able to work remotely from cheaper accommodations. You'd be surprised. As far as I know, in the US both Seattle and Austin became terribly expensive to the point FANG salaries don't allow for a comfortable, well-off life style with a lot of disposable income to spare. Austin alone is renowned for requiring a >$100k salary to live comfortably, when FANGs with a presence there barely pay $120k. Personally, I know a couple of ex-Amazon developers from Madrid who outright quit because Amazon's salary (around €40k for SDE1) wasn't enough to afford a two-bedroom apartment in the city center.
    - dunkelheit 4y ago
      > Moscow is too expensive Compared to what? Compared to other Russian cities it is certainly expensive. Compared to e.g. San Francisco it is very cheap. > it prices even software developer leads out. Doesn't match my experience at all. It doesn't require extraordinary thrift for someone with a software developer lead salary to start a family and pay off a mortgage for a decent apartment.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Compared to what? Given the context provided for the statement, “Moscow is too expensive: it prices even software developer leads out”, local wages, since (as described) it is too expensive for even relatively high-wage workers.
    - sigsergv 4y ago
      The only expensive part in Moscow is home/appartment. Everything else is cheaper than in other cities. Moscow is a major logistic hub of whole country, everything is here. Food, entertainment, great public transport system.
throw93232 4y ago
- pedrosorio 4y ago
  > Maybe he is just polite. I don't understand how this relates to the comment you are replying to, and can't make sense of it from the rest of your comment either. What did you mean? > Plus west right now has anti Russian bon*r... never know if they may confiscate something Who are "they"? Confiscate what?
  - throw93232 4y ago
    It no longer makes sense to move from Russia to US. There may be better living standard in Moscow now. Uncle does not point it out, since he does not want start family argument. Canada and other govs are looking into confiscating assets of Russians who live in west. Bringing ~ $1M of assets (pension) from Russia to US might be very risky move.
    - usrn 4y ago
      I'm not convinced the US has a higher standard of living, especially for the PMC. Here all your money gets sucked up by housing which isn't a problem in Russia.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      Well, in Russia it's almost impossible to live in your own quality home in a good weather with a local, well-paid job. That's still the selling point of the US. Yes, Moscow have good living standard for some definitions of living, but usually it will still mean living in a relatively small apartment of high-rise residential building. Singapore-style (only that it gets very cold).
      - throw93232 4y ago
        》quality home in a good weather with a local, well-paid job Or maybe wooden shack with 2 hour commute for $1M :) Buing summer house on turkish riviera seems like better option.
formvoltron 4y ago
Is it really a good idea to take all the brains out of Russia? What would be left? Criminals and nuclear weapons? Is this a good outcome?
- rm_-rf_slash 4y ago
  Russia has a very long history of importing foreign tech and know-how, largely to support their natural resource export economy. Foreign expertise will be imported for pay when sanctions drop, someday.
- azinman2 4y ago
  If you’re targeted towards high end scientists, then that’s not all of intelligencia. That said, you want enough smart people that there’s some opposition, but it hasn’t seem to do too much in recent years.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  The flight is happening anyway, the issue is where they land.
- adventured 4y ago
  It hasn't made any positive difference leaving the present brains in Russia - look where we're at. Those brains that ideologically align with the liberal West are presently trapped inside of a Russia they are likely to fundamentally disagree with, we should bring them over to our side if we can. What will be left? The same power structure and malevolent culture that already exists, minus some of the brains. I believe the last few rounds of brain drain out of Russia have helped to leave their scientific, aerospace and military programs in the relatively dire condition they are at present vs the Soviet past (emphasis on helped, there are other factors such as eg Ukraine no longer being part of the USSR, with Ukraine being an important contributor to various Soviet accomplishments). It has net weakened Russia considerably in my opinion, that's a good thing, until or unless their culture changes.
  - blip54321 4y ago
    Culture is not the same as government.

atdrummond 4y ago

What’s his area of speciality?

danielodievich 4y ago
He runs an software engineering group in MTS, a big telecom. I think mostly large-scale distributed backend engineering.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Moscow is too expensive: it prices even software developer leads out. Still, I don't think he have any but first world problems.
  - antisthenes 4y ago
    > Moscow is too expensive: it prices even software developer leads out. No, it doesn't. This "woe is me, underpaid all the time" rhetoric from someone with a software dev salary is getting really tiring. Moscow is huge. And Software devs are a small minority of all occupations. Plenty of people afford living in Moscow just fine without anywhere near the level of salary typical of software. Probably the only place in the world that priced out software devs was pre-Covid SV, where you weren't able to work remotely from cheaper accommodations. But that really is a unique location and a self-inflicted CA problem. It's not even a first-world problem. It's more of a middle-upper class spoiled rich brat with a 1% salary problem. The NY alternative for this is "woe is me I can't afford private school for my 6 kids and a 5th ave apartment at the same time"
    - arinlen 4y ago
      > Probably the only place in the world that priced out software devs was pre-Covid SV, where you weren't able to work remotely from cheaper accommodations. You'd be surprised. As far as I know, in the US both Seattle and Austin became terribly expensive to the point FANG salaries don't allow for a comfortable, well-off life style with a lot of disposable income to spare. Austin alone is renowned for requiring a >$100k salary to live comfortably, when FANGs with a presence there barely pay $120k. Personally, I know a couple of ex-Amazon developers from Madrid who outright quit because Amazon's salary (around €40k for SDE1) wasn't enough to afford a two-bedroom apartment in the city center.
  - dunkelheit 4y ago
    > Moscow is too expensive Compared to what? Compared to other Russian cities it is certainly expensive. Compared to e.g. San Francisco it is very cheap. > it prices even software developer leads out. Doesn't match my experience at all. It doesn't require extraordinary thrift for someone with a software developer lead salary to start a family and pay off a mortgage for a decent apartment.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Compared to what? Given the context provided for the statement, “Moscow is too expensive: it prices even software developer leads out”, local wages, since (as described) it is too expensive for even relatively high-wage workers.
  - sigsergv 4y ago
    The only expensive part in Moscow is home/appartment. Everything else is cheaper than in other cities. Moscow is a major logistic hub of whole country, everything is here. Food, entertainment, great public transport system.

throw93232 4y ago

pedrosorio 4y ago
> Maybe he is just polite. I don't understand how this relates to the comment you are replying to, and can't make sense of it from the rest of your comment either. What did you mean? > Plus west right now has anti Russian bon*r... never know if they may confiscate something Who are "they"? Confiscate what?
- throw93232 4y ago
  It no longer makes sense to move from Russia to US. There may be better living standard in Moscow now. Uncle does not point it out, since he does not want start family argument. Canada and other govs are looking into confiscating assets of Russians who live in west. Bringing ~ $1M of assets (pension) from Russia to US might be very risky move.
  - usrn 4y ago
    I'm not convinced the US has a higher standard of living, especially for the PMC. Here all your money gets sucked up by housing which isn't a problem in Russia.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Well, in Russia it's almost impossible to live in your own quality home in a good weather with a local, well-paid job. That's still the selling point of the US. Yes, Moscow have good living standard for some definitions of living, but usually it will still mean living in a relatively small apartment of high-rise residential building. Singapore-style (only that it gets very cold).
    - throw93232 4y ago
      》quality home in a good weather with a local, well-paid job Or maybe wooden shack with 2 hour commute for $1M :) Buing summer house on turkish riviera seems like better option.

formvoltron 4y ago

Is it really a good idea to take all the brains out of Russia? What would be left? Criminals and nuclear weapons? Is this a good outcome?

rm_-rf_slash 4y ago
Russia has a very long history of importing foreign tech and know-how, largely to support their natural resource export economy. Foreign expertise will be imported for pay when sanctions drop, someday.
azinman2 4y ago
If you’re targeted towards high end scientists, then that’s not all of intelligencia. That said, you want enough smart people that there’s some opposition, but it hasn’t seem to do too much in recent years.
dragonwriter 4y ago
The flight is happening anyway, the issue is where they land.
adventured 4y ago
It hasn't made any positive difference leaving the present brains in Russia - look where we're at. Those brains that ideologically align with the liberal West are presently trapped inside of a Russia they are likely to fundamentally disagree with, we should bring them over to our side if we can. What will be left? The same power structure and malevolent culture that already exists, minus some of the brains. I believe the last few rounds of brain drain out of Russia have helped to leave their scientific, aerospace and military programs in the relatively dire condition they are at present vs the Soviet past (emphasis on helped, there are other factors such as eg Ukraine no longer being part of the USSR, with Ukraine being an important contributor to various Soviet accomplishments). It has net weakened Russia considerably in my opinion, that's a good thing, until or unless their culture changes.
- blip54321 4y ago
  Culture is not the same as government.