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So you don't have any issues with the ACLU's heel turn into partisan activism over the past few years? Like reversing position on vaccine mandates, fighting for

So you don't have any issues with the ACLU's heel turn into partisan activism over the past few years? Like reversing position on vaccine mandates, fighting for mask mandates in schools, fighting against school curriculum transparency, fighting to compel speech for teachers (Loudon County)?

camhenlin 4y ago
Many of these talking points are only partisan in the US
- ad_hominem 4y ago
  It's also "only in the US" where we have the most permissive free speech laws on the planet. Forgive me for expecting a little more from the former top-tier First Amendment defender to keep it that way.
  - camhenlin 4y ago
    I just looked up your list from your previous post: - ACLU supports vaccine mandates because it increases civil liberties by protecting our most vulnerable: https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/civil-liberties-and-vaccine-mandates-heres-our-take https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/civil-liberties-an... - ACLU supported mask mandates in some settings to protect vulnerable children: https://www.aclu.org/podcast/school-mask-mandate-bans-discriminate-against-disabled-kids https://www.aclu.org/podcast/school-mask-mandate-bans-discri... - Your school curriculum transparency item seems like government censorship that the ACLU was fighting: https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-curriculum-transparency-bills https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-curriculum-... - last, “fighting to compel speech for teachers” is a bit of a stretch — they were pushing for teachers to use students’ correct pronouns, which is a common courtesy in most settings. https://acluva.org/en/cases/byron-tanner-cross-et-al-v-loudoun-county-school-board-et-al-amicus https://acluva.org/en/cases/byron-tanner-cross-et-al-v-loudo...
    - Banana699 4y ago
      >increases civil liberties by protecting our most vulnerable What a bizarre rhetorical maneuver, civil liberties aren't increased by trying to "Protect the most vulnerable", civil liberties are increased by leaving people the fuck alone. You can acknowledge the fact that there's often a tension between individual freedom and public good and try to defend the ACLU by making a case that they chose what they view as (and many others don't share their view) public good, but twisting words to forcibly paint them as liberty defenders when they are doing the exact opposite is just strange. >supported mask mandates in some settings to protect vulnerable children The same children that study after study shows are psychologically damaged and learning-impaired by not seeing their peers' and their teachers' faces[1]. So instead of the few vulnerable children being exempted from school and taught at home or online or in special masked classes, we impose a rule that harms all children and affect, possibly permanently, their psych and development. Good call. >government censorship that the ACLU was fighting No, it isn't government censorship. It's the public deciding what the public schools they fund through taxes can and cannot teach. This is perfectly legal and perfectly moral, teachers are hired and paid salaries to teach what the school says they should teach. Especially when the allegedly "banned" topics are sexually explicit material featuring minors and debunked pseudo-history invented literally a year ago. It isn't censorship when your employer forces you to use or not use a programming language, it's how jobs work. >“fighting to compel speech for teachers” is a bit of a stretch — they were pushing for teachers to use students’ correct pronouns So, they _were_ fighting to compel speech for teachers, but that's a good thing because pronouns? >which is a common courtesy in most settings. No it's not, it's a practice invented 4 to 6 years ago by a minority of delusional individuals living in a very specific place and time, and the vast majority of people in time and space can correctly identify the 3rd person pronoun most suitable for a person on their own and call them by it without any special requests. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-take-masks-off-children-in-school https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-t...
    - FFRefresh 4y ago
      You are obviously not the ACLU, but the invocation of 'protecting the vulnerable' to support the reduction of individual liberties is a slippery rationale. You could get rid of nearly all civil liberties with that reasoning.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - criddell 4y ago
    Try steelmanning some of the ACLU positions you disagree with and see if your position softens or changes.
    - syshum 4y ago
      It does not. the ACLU policy shift can be best described as a shift from the defense of individual rights to defense of group or collective rights. I am ardent supporter of individual rights. This is largely also the difference between the EU/Canda and the US. where the US has traditionally and correctly placed the most importance on individual rights. Where as the EU places the focus more on society in general or groups in society over the individual
      - zozbot234 4y ago
        > I am ardent supporter of individual rights. The smallest, most oppressed minority of them all is the individual. Individual rights are minority rights.
- qiskit 4y ago
- syshum 4y ago
  The ACLU is the AMERICAN civil liberties union. So talking about them in an US context is the proper context
clajiness 4y ago
[flagged]
- ad_hominem 4y ago
  If you want to let the ACLU "speak for themselves" here they are arguing against vaccine mandates while Trump was President: https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/coronavirus-immunity-passports-are-not-the-answer https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/coronavirus-imm... Under Biden, they switched course: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/02/opinion/covid-vaccine-mandates-civil-liberties.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/02/opinion/covid-vaccine-man... And you're flat-out lying about the mask mandates, they're suing schools who want to make them *optional*: https://twitter.com/acluva/status/1494327778203901952 https://twitter.com/acluva/status/1494327778203901952 You can stuff any amount of authoritarian "bullshit" as you put it under LGBTQA+MAP territory, using "equity" as a vanguardist spearpoint, which is what the ACLU is doing. Can you honestly say the ACLU that once defended KKK members is the same organization today? One of its former directors, Ira Glasser, thinks it's not the same, and I think most people have enough common sense to agree.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    > LGBTQA+MAP Excuse me, why are you conflating gay people and pedophiles?
    - saxonww 4y ago
      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/maps-pride-flag/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/maps-pride-flag/ As usual, people will repeat this sort of thing when it serves their agenda.
    - techif 4y ago
      It is, fortunately, a very niche view, but some organizations are indeed pushing for pedophiles to be included in the LGBTQ+. One recently controversial example is Prostasia. Another, from the UK back in the 1970s, is the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE). These groups, and others, have been trying to latch on to the gay rights movement for a long time.

camhenlin 4y ago

Many of these talking points are only partisan in the US

ad_hominem 4y ago
It's also "only in the US" where we have the most permissive free speech laws on the planet. Forgive me for expecting a little more from the former top-tier First Amendment defender to keep it that way.
- camhenlin 4y ago
  I just looked up your list from your previous post: - ACLU supports vaccine mandates because it increases civil liberties by protecting our most vulnerable: https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/civil-liberties-and-vaccine-mandates-heres-our-take https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/civil-liberties-an... - ACLU supported mask mandates in some settings to protect vulnerable children: https://www.aclu.org/podcast/school-mask-mandate-bans-discriminate-against-disabled-kids https://www.aclu.org/podcast/school-mask-mandate-bans-discri... - Your school curriculum transparency item seems like government censorship that the ACLU was fighting: https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-curriculum-transparency-bills https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-curriculum-... - last, “fighting to compel speech for teachers” is a bit of a stretch — they were pushing for teachers to use students’ correct pronouns, which is a common courtesy in most settings. https://acluva.org/en/cases/byron-tanner-cross-et-al-v-loudoun-county-school-board-et-al-amicus https://acluva.org/en/cases/byron-tanner-cross-et-al-v-loudo...
  - Banana699 4y ago
    >increases civil liberties by protecting our most vulnerable What a bizarre rhetorical maneuver, civil liberties aren't increased by trying to "Protect the most vulnerable", civil liberties are increased by leaving people the fuck alone. You can acknowledge the fact that there's often a tension between individual freedom and public good and try to defend the ACLU by making a case that they chose what they view as (and many others don't share their view) public good, but twisting words to forcibly paint them as liberty defenders when they are doing the exact opposite is just strange. >supported mask mandates in some settings to protect vulnerable children The same children that study after study shows are psychologically damaged and learning-impaired by not seeing their peers' and their teachers' faces[1]. So instead of the few vulnerable children being exempted from school and taught at home or online or in special masked classes, we impose a rule that harms all children and affect, possibly permanently, their psych and development. Good call. >government censorship that the ACLU was fighting No, it isn't government censorship. It's the public deciding what the public schools they fund through taxes can and cannot teach. This is perfectly legal and perfectly moral, teachers are hired and paid salaries to teach what the school says they should teach. Especially when the allegedly "banned" topics are sexually explicit material featuring minors and debunked pseudo-history invented literally a year ago. It isn't censorship when your employer forces you to use or not use a programming language, it's how jobs work. >“fighting to compel speech for teachers” is a bit of a stretch — they were pushing for teachers to use students’ correct pronouns So, they _were_ fighting to compel speech for teachers, but that's a good thing because pronouns? >which is a common courtesy in most settings. No it's not, it's a practice invented 4 to 6 years ago by a minority of delusional individuals living in a very specific place and time, and the vast majority of people in time and space can correctly identify the 3rd person pronoun most suitable for a person on their own and call them by it without any special requests. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-take-masks-off-children-in-school https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-t...
  - FFRefresh 4y ago
    You are obviously not the ACLU, but the invocation of 'protecting the vulnerable' to support the reduction of individual liberties is a slippery rationale. You could get rid of nearly all civil liberties with that reasoning.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- criddell 4y ago
  Try steelmanning some of the ACLU positions you disagree with and see if your position softens or changes.
  - syshum 4y ago
    It does not. the ACLU policy shift can be best described as a shift from the defense of individual rights to defense of group or collective rights. I am ardent supporter of individual rights. This is largely also the difference between the EU/Canda and the US. where the US has traditionally and correctly placed the most importance on individual rights. Where as the EU places the focus more on society in general or groups in society over the individual
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      > I am ardent supporter of individual rights. The smallest, most oppressed minority of them all is the individual. Individual rights are minority rights.
qiskit 4y ago
syshum 4y ago
The ACLU is the AMERICAN civil liberties union. So talking about them in an US context is the proper context

clajiness 4y ago

[flagged]

ad_hominem 4y ago
If you want to let the ACLU "speak for themselves" here they are arguing against vaccine mandates while Trump was President: https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/coronavirus-immunity-passports-are-not-the-answer https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/coronavirus-imm... Under Biden, they switched course: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/02/opinion/covid-vaccine-mandates-civil-liberties.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/02/opinion/covid-vaccine-man... And you're flat-out lying about the mask mandates, they're suing schools who want to make them *optional*: https://twitter.com/acluva/status/1494327778203901952 https://twitter.com/acluva/status/1494327778203901952 You can stuff any amount of authoritarian "bullshit" as you put it under LGBTQA+MAP territory, using "equity" as a vanguardist spearpoint, which is what the ACLU is doing. Can you honestly say the ACLU that once defended KKK members is the same organization today? One of its former directors, Ira Glasser, thinks it's not the same, and I think most people have enough common sense to agree.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  > LGBTQA+MAP Excuse me, why are you conflating gay people and pedophiles?
  - saxonww 4y ago
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/maps-pride-flag/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/maps-pride-flag/ As usual, people will repeat this sort of thing when it serves their agenda.
  - techif 4y ago
    It is, fortunately, a very niche view, but some organizations are indeed pushing for pedophiles to be included in the LGBTQ+. One recently controversial example is Prostasia. Another, from the UK back in the 1970s, is the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE). These groups, and others, have been trying to latch on to the gay rights movement for a long time.