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I sincerely hope all of the people who worked on the recovery effort are okay, and are being well supported and strongly encouraged to tend their mental health.

I sincerely hope all of the people who worked on the recovery effort are okay, and are being well supported and strongly encouraged to tend their mental health. I have no personal investment in Atlassian products—if anything, unrelated to this or any incident, I could happily never use them again. But the people who work there are human, and I know what kind of a toll a protracted recovery effort can take. I know it from chronic pain two years after the burnout started. No one should experience that. I know it’s probably not the thing Atlassian the business thinks they should communicate to customers/general public, and it’s not surprising it’s absent, but it’s a shame they did not address the well being of their staff. Especially those who undoubtedly put exhausting effort into recovering from this incident. And sure, that would be unusual as a business communication. But should it be? Even before this severe burnout, I would have looked at this list of lessons learned and thought “a lot of people are going to be overworking the same as they’ve been through all of this, but now they’ll be doing it invisibly.” And that definitely doesn’t inspire confidence that there won’t be another catastrophic mistake in the near future—it doesn’t make me more confident in the business. None of this is a strong criticism, just some observations from being on the other side of a marathon incident recovery.

madeofpalk 5y ago
I was thinking of this - working on this incident sounds like an exhausting amount of work for so many people.
nomilk 5y ago
As someone who's worked on similar situations, I don't expect any pat on the back, but see it as my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place, and when it does, my responsibility to fix it without complaint. Some Atlassian customers might have had much more severe (mental health and other) problems than the Atlassian staff, so I think it can be perceived as mildly solipsistic to be praising the staff and (being perceived to) forget about the customers' wellbeing (I know you didn't say anything about forgetting about the customers, but affected customers may perceive it that way).
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  This is a fascinating response. I’ll address the last part first, because I don’t want it to get lost. > I know you didn't say anything about forgetting about the customers, but affected customers may perceive it that way No, I didn’t mean to suggest or imply this, and hope it won’t be taken this way by anyone. It was perhaps a mistake taking it as read that obviously their customers were also harmed. But I do think it’s a reasonable point to make more explicit, and I do agree that it likely had a similar impact on customers to the experience I described. I’ll repeat that no one should experience that. That said… > As someone who's worked on similar situations, I don't expect any pat on the back, but see it as my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place, and when it does, my responsibility to fix it without complaint. This seems like you’re addressing something entirely outside the actual content of my comment, and perhaps projecting your own priorities onto it. First of all, I was in no way suggesting anyone get special reward. And I was in no way referencing any Atlassian employee’s complaints nor airing my own. I mean it sincerely that I hope they are okay and that their mental health needs are being respected. It was entirely a statement of human compassion, and an observation that it’s one which can go unstated/understated in these discussions. Secondly, I added my own experience as a personal reflection on the toll it can take. It’s not easy to say in a public forum that I’ve suffered years of chronic pain after addressing an incident. I added this for context because I think it is easy for people to dismiss the impact serious incidents have on the people responsible to them. A side note before I get to thirdly: I think this is also true for people in many careers where incident response is a primary job responsibility. Sometimes it prompts explicit acknowledgement, often it does not. I just think the world would be better off if more people’s legitimate pain and challenges were acknowledged. Third point: I took special care above to say “responsible to”, not “responsible for” or simply “responsible”. I’m certain, given Atlassian’s size and the impact of this outage, that many of the people involved in recovery efforts played no role in the mistakes leading to the outage. In my own anecdote, I played no role in causing the incident. I have to walk a fine professional line here because I have no intention or desire to criticize anyone else involved. I think I can reasonably say this. I did what you described: > see it as my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place, and when it does, my responsibility to fix it without complaint. Even so, I’m experiencing chronic pain years later. And now I will complain: it sucks being in pain every day for years. I wouldn’t go back and do anything differently as an IC, except perhaps to tell past me when to slow down and that I have more ability to affect short term prioritization than I once realized. Lastly, > praising the staff I sincerely hope this hasn’t had the negative impact on you which you’re describing as hypothetical for Atlassian customers generally. If it has, I hope you’ll hear me when I say any sharp tone in this response is not from lack of solidarity. But if it hasn’t and you’re replying only out of work ethic and blame-placing: kindly go re-read my comment and recognize that the only praise I expressed was for the humanity of human people whose experience I wish to include in the conversation.
mynameishere 5y ago
- progman32 5y ago
  "what about"-isms don't remove the experiences of people with jobs less stressful than rail clearing specialists.
  - helmholtz 5y ago
    I'm curious about your take on the cheapening or dilution of words in language nowadays. One isnt hurt but traumatized, one isn't "once bitten twice shy" but suffering from PTSD. It's assault if one gets in a fight and so on. I sometimes feel we're running out of language to distinguish the truly extreme from the quotidian. Same thing with how GP phrased it. A hard week of work comes across as having gone to battle and being left with deep wounds. Still, I do mostly get your point.
    - eyelidlessness 5y ago
      You’re projecting a whole lot of language that’s not in use here so maybe you should consider that.
    - Griffinsauce 5y ago
      > nowadays Any argument that uses this qualification should be accompanied with data. You haven't specified anything, not even a rough time frame. Your statement is so vague nearly anything can be projected onto it. Also a sidenote: if you're going to make an argument about language and definitions it seems like a good idea to actually know what PTSD is before using it as an example.
      - helmholtz 5y ago
        My comment was vague because my feelings on the topic itself are vague. I'm not married to the position and was only trying to spark a line of thought. That said, nowadays would be social media mass adoption. Circa 2000 for the sake of thought experiment. Also, what is the definition of PTSD and how did I use it incorrectly? For context, I once dropped a heavy duty suitcase on my foot when the handle gave. Now I always think picture the worst when carrying it. Is that PTSD? I would suggest not, because the extent of the trauma is much lower than a war veteran. That was what I was trying to get at.

madeofpalk 5y ago

I was thinking of this - working on this incident sounds like an exhausting amount of work for so many people.

nomilk 5y ago

As someone who's worked on similar situations, I don't expect any pat on the back, but see it as my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place, and when it does, my responsibility to fix it without complaint. Some Atlassian customers might have had much more severe (mental health and other) problems than the Atlassian staff, so I think it can be perceived as mildly solipsistic to be praising the staff and (being perceived to) forget about the customers' wellbeing (I know you didn't say anything about forgetting about the customers, but affected customers may perceive it that way).

eyelidlessness 5y ago
This is a fascinating response. I’ll address the last part first, because I don’t want it to get lost. > I know you didn't say anything about forgetting about the customers, but affected customers may perceive it that way No, I didn’t mean to suggest or imply this, and hope it won’t be taken this way by anyone. It was perhaps a mistake taking it as read that obviously their customers were also harmed. But I do think it’s a reasonable point to make more explicit, and I do agree that it likely had a similar impact on customers to the experience I described. I’ll repeat that no one should experience that. That said… > As someone who's worked on similar situations, I don't expect any pat on the back, but see it as my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place, and when it does, my responsibility to fix it without complaint. This seems like you’re addressing something entirely outside the actual content of my comment, and perhaps projecting your own priorities onto it. First of all, I was in no way suggesting anyone get special reward. And I was in no way referencing any Atlassian employee’s complaints nor airing my own. I mean it sincerely that I hope they are okay and that their mental health needs are being respected. It was entirely a statement of human compassion, and an observation that it’s one which can go unstated/understated in these discussions. Secondly, I added my own experience as a personal reflection on the toll it can take. It’s not easy to say in a public forum that I’ve suffered years of chronic pain after addressing an incident. I added this for context because I think it is easy for people to dismiss the impact serious incidents have on the people responsible to them. A side note before I get to thirdly: I think this is also true for people in many careers where incident response is a primary job responsibility. Sometimes it prompts explicit acknowledgement, often it does not. I just think the world would be better off if more people’s legitimate pain and challenges were acknowledged. Third point: I took special care above to say “responsible to”, not “responsible for” or simply “responsible”. I’m certain, given Atlassian’s size and the impact of this outage, that many of the people involved in recovery efforts played no role in the mistakes leading to the outage. In my own anecdote, I played no role in causing the incident. I have to walk a fine professional line here because I have no intention or desire to criticize anyone else involved. I think I can reasonably say this. I did what you described: > see it as my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place, and when it does, my responsibility to fix it without complaint. Even so, I’m experiencing chronic pain years later. And now I will complain: it sucks being in pain every day for years. I wouldn’t go back and do anything differently as an IC, except perhaps to tell past me when to slow down and that I have more ability to affect short term prioritization than I once realized. Lastly, > praising the staff I sincerely hope this hasn’t had the negative impact on you which you’re describing as hypothetical for Atlassian customers generally. If it has, I hope you’ll hear me when I say any sharp tone in this response is not from lack of solidarity. But if it hasn’t and you’re replying only out of work ethic and blame-placing: kindly go re-read my comment and recognize that the only praise I expressed was for the humanity of human people whose experience I wish to include in the conversation.

mynameishere 5y ago

progman32 5y ago
"what about"-isms don't remove the experiences of people with jobs less stressful than rail clearing specialists.
- helmholtz 5y ago
  I'm curious about your take on the cheapening or dilution of words in language nowadays. One isnt hurt but traumatized, one isn't "once bitten twice shy" but suffering from PTSD. It's assault if one gets in a fight and so on. I sometimes feel we're running out of language to distinguish the truly extreme from the quotidian. Same thing with how GP phrased it. A hard week of work comes across as having gone to battle and being left with deep wounds. Still, I do mostly get your point.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    You’re projecting a whole lot of language that’s not in use here so maybe you should consider that.
  - Griffinsauce 5y ago
    > nowadays Any argument that uses this qualification should be accompanied with data. You haven't specified anything, not even a rough time frame. Your statement is so vague nearly anything can be projected onto it. Also a sidenote: if you're going to make an argument about language and definitions it seems like a good idea to actually know what PTSD is before using it as an example.
    - helmholtz 5y ago
      My comment was vague because my feelings on the topic itself are vague. I'm not married to the position and was only trying to spark a line of thought. That said, nowadays would be social media mass adoption. Circa 2000 for the sake of thought experiment. Also, what is the definition of PTSD and how did I use it incorrectly? For context, I once dropped a heavy duty suitcase on my foot when the handle gave. Now I always think picture the worst when carrying it. Is that PTSD? I would suggest not, because the extent of the trauma is much lower than a war veteran. That was what I was trying to get at.