9 ms·

Ultorg: A user interface for relational databases [video]

355 points by mjadobson 4y ago

dang 4y ago
Related: Ultorg: A General-Purpose User Interface for Relational Databases (2020) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29647880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29647880 - Dec 2021 (13 comments)
spullara 4y ago
Reminds me a lot of https://sigmacomputing.com https://sigmacomputing.com
klysm 4y ago
Feels like GraphQL graphically combined with Excel. What Airtable could’ve been.
CyberRabbi 4y ago
Surprised there isn’t SQLite support. Perhaps it’s in the works. Also surprised this is a native app, would have expected a web application. In any case, compelling demo.
- dhash 4y ago
  A bunch of the database IO in it is JDBC based, so a web app probably isn’t going to happen.
  - CyberRabbi 4y ago
    Database drivers are commoditized on all major language runtimes. I don’t think this is a reason for it not being a web app.
- sigstoat 4y ago
  > Also surprised this is a native app, would have expected a web application. who is going to pay for a database access tool that requires you punch an incoming hole in your firewall?
  - tyingq 4y ago
    The same idea/designer applied to a web based CRUD app development tool would do well though. If Airtable/Quickbase/etc took some of these ideas, it would be much faster to churn out CRUD apps.
arjonagelhout 4y ago
Here’s some more information on Ultorg: > Ultorg creates general-purpose software that helps organizations manage their data. Based on a new method for interactive data visualization, our product combines ease-of-use with expressive power to allow end-users to query, display, and edit relational data, without resorting to custom programming. This fills a long-standing gap between spreadsheets and tailor-made database applications. [0] I find it inspiring that it has such readable and space-efficient interface, compared to current trends in many web apps. [0] https://ultorg.com https://ultorg.com
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > our product combines ease-of-use with expressive power to allow end-users to query, display, and edit relational data, without resorting to custom programming. This fills a long-standing gap between spreadsheets and tailor-made database applications. How does it compare to Access or LibreOffice Base? That's always been the next step once the spreadsheet proves inadequate.
  - eirikbakke 4y ago
    Microsoft Access was an attempt to do the same: provide a user interface to a relational database. But it was never as easy to use as Excel, or the other office applications. There are still quite a few MS Access files around in government and legacy corporate datasets, and Ultorg can connect to them. Back when Ultorg was an academic project, we did a controlled user study comparing Ultorg's visual query interface (then called SIEUFERD) to Microsoft Access' query builder. Using the System Usability Scale, Ultorg's usability was in the 52th percentile (better than 52% of business software), while Microsoft Access was 6th(!) percentile (better than 6% of business software, i.e. worse than 94% of business software). (Source: https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/research/sieuferd_sigmod2016.pdf https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/research/sieuferd_sigmod... )
- andrewgilmartin 4y ago
  > I find it inspiring that it has such readable and space-efficient interface, compared to current trends in many web apps. Agree.
mdmglr 4y ago
What GUI toolkit is this using? Is this native?
- nighthawk454 4y ago
  Looks like Java Swing to me, or something in that area. This isn't open source, but the author's github has primarily Java projects including an old swingx fork. https://github.com/eirikbakke?tab=repositories https://github.com/eirikbakke?tab=repositories
  - andai 4y ago
    Here's an amusing project: a program that benchmarks the user of a database software, to measure its ease of use. https://github.com/eirikbakke/SDEBM https://github.com/eirikbakke/SDEBM
- eirikbakke 4y ago
  It's Java/Swing--same stack as IntelliJ. Though the IDE-like parts (window system etc.) are from the NetBeans IDE, which has a very good application development platform. Also a shoutout to Karl Tauber's excellent FlatLAF library ( https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf ).
kall 4y ago
I've been using Hasura and TablePlus a lot lately, and actually wished for something that combines them. Hasura is great at understanding relations and making joins feel effortless and TablePlus is so good at making table editing feel as fast as excel. This looks like it's the thing, with some extra power thrown on top (formulas and nested layouts are nice!). The UI looks drab, but maybe that's ok? It means the functionality needs to be so strong it doesn't matter. It also looks super snappy which matters most. Something that Airtable has over relational database GUIs is lightweight enums and arrays of them. Sure you can model all that in SQL, but it's super useful to have it right inline. I hope this tool can pick up on a pattern like enum tables (like hasura) and provide UI that makes them look like tag list/select fields.
- wilsonfiifi 4y ago
  You should take a look at Directus [0]. It's much lighter than Hasura. [0] https://directus.io/ https://directus.io/
  - kall 4y ago
    Hasura is a rock solid piece of software that does pretty much exactly the right thing for me. Performance exceeds expectations and it's never once crashed or been the source of a bug in years of use. "lighter" is not convincing. Directus looks cool in the CMS/no-code space, but as a backend API hub I don't see anything there that would tempt me over hasura.
- acmecorps 4y ago
  +1 for TablePlus! I absolutely love them for the fast editing as well as quick and dirty filters. Beats typing SQL for simple stuff. These quality of life features are really underrated. Absolutely worth the yearly fee!
  - kall 4y ago
    I feel like they see themselves as a database management tool, but with just a few tweaks (good UI for working with relations), could be a FileMaker / Airtable contender.
fatih-erikli 4y ago
I like the concept of converting a database into an application. I don't know why but it reminded me the Aspmaker product, I've been using it in highschool times and I created so many admin panels with it.
- fatih-erikli 4y ago
  Also Delphi ecosystem had so many that kind of components such as DataGrid, DataView, etc. I remember at that time almost all the ERP, CRM applications were using Delphi and a component suite called Devexpress. Nowadays everybody using React :)
mwigdahl 4y ago
I've used the Ultorg beta for some experimental data UIs in house. It's still early days, but the tech is sound and the ability to construct multiple different views into the same set of data is very useful. Performance is pretty good overall given the complex queries it may have to juggle behind the scenes.
rad_gruchalski 4y ago
Someone who builds something like this in form of an Excel plugin will have a real winner. And if you do, and when you make your millions, please send me a check as a show of gratitude :)
- password4321 4y ago
  Are Excel plugins really a valid market? I know there are some but I wonder what the size of the entire segment is... 95%+ [<- random large percentage] of places will never allow installation of anything extra!
  - tyingq 4y ago
    Essbase and its Excel plugin is a notable exception.
- airstrike 4y ago
  Excel plugins are unfit for this as the app enforces a perfect grid
  - andai 4y ago
    In Google Sheets I can merge cells horizontally or vertically, does Excel not have that?
    - airstrike 4y ago
      Excel does, but merging is not a "best practice". It breaks navigation and causes all sorts of annoying UX issues. Still, it's unmanageable to replicate the grid in TFA (TFV?) by merging/un-merging cells
vosper 4y ago
Related: I'm enjoying the format of the HYTRADBOI (have you tried rubbing a database on it?) videos. It doesn't have that live-presentation feel of an in-person conference talk, but as I'm behind a screen anyway I don't really care about that. Give me the information succinctly, so I can watch it during a coffee break or whatever. The organiser of the conference had an interesting (and likeiwse pleasantly succinct!) post-mortem write up of the event, if anyone is interested https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/hytradboi-2022-postmortem/ https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/hytradboi-2022-po...
george_ciobanu 4y ago
Awesome tool the UI is really smart. Shameless plug: I built a similar, web-based tool for exploring a database at www.human.software
- tacotime 4y ago
  The sign up button does not seem to work so I was not able to try it. Also, the FAQ's on the home page are gibberish.
  - george_ciobanu 4y ago
    Thank you for taking the time to check it out tacotime :-) I'm looking into why sign up didn't work for you, the UX where I allow people to sign up and sign in with the same UI might be at fault here (I don't see any failed signups in the backend). I will simplify it and update the FAQ. Grateful for your feedback.
    - george_ciobanu 4y ago
      Signup fixed, now updating the FAQ
airstrike 4y ago
This is literally my dream project I never had the time (or honestly technological expertise) to build... I have some other very opinionated ideas on a couple other layers to this problem that I hope to try to investigate in the next 12 months or so
HellsMaddy 4y ago
My first ever programming gig was converting a small business's back-office MS Access database into a CRUD web application. Sure, I made it look all pretty, but if this had been available back then, I would've been out of a job! Super impressive work!
lixtra 4y ago
I like the idea. But I‘m turned off by the fact that there is no pricing information. Just a request access action button. Maybe it’s vapor ware. Maybe they are checking market interest. Maybe they are looking for large pilot customers. I don’t see a product for me. The discussion here is still interesting and I‘m grateful for the mentioned alternatives. As for my pricing limits? Probably something between 10-50 USD per user per month, where at 10 USD I would very seriously look into it and at about 50 USD, I would have to carefully run the numbers.
- 2mol 4y ago
  I filled out the form to get access, and I got it about a day later. It's free, and it didn't ask me about anything else. As far as I can tell it's above beta quality, so definitely not vaporware.
- harrisi 4y ago
  Here's my anecdote: I requested access and got a download link in an email from the founder shortly thereafter. I found out about it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30871660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30871660. You seem like someone that would be ideal for the private beta as a potential paying customer. Might help him out.
michaelsalim 4y ago
Man this looks amazing. I've been wondering why something like this doesn't exist yet - or at least with this level of quality. An alternative I use is Jailer[1]. It's great but can be quite confusing to use so I hope this takes off. [1] https://wisser.github.io/Jailer/ https://wisser.github.io/Jailer/
sagarjs 4y ago
I’m honestly really blown away by this. Are there other such tools out there that do a similar thing?
- kostko 4y ago
  Yes, tableau
- qwertox 4y ago
  This is the most interesting thing related to databases I've seen in years.
  - abirch 4y ago
    I agree. This is better than DataGrip that my employer gives me.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  https://dbeaver.io/ https://dbeaver.io/ is an open source tool with community and commercial builds that's quite mature and capable. I don't like SQL or database administration very much so it's become my go-to utility if I need to look at an unfamiliar DB. I've never had any problems with it though I keep a copy of SQL workbench around as it seems to perform better on large projects.
  - majkinetor 4y ago
    dBeaver is awesome and the best thing its free and open source. There is enterprise version tat includes NoSQL databases and some other stuff. It also has vertical row view (swith by using TAB) that is great help when when you have lots of columns. If they ever add option to join columns like this app, it could pretty much replace it. Metabase is another one.
- leetrout 4y ago
  Datastation is sorta similar but in my brief experience the description is more aspirational at this stage. https://datastation.multiprocess.io/ https://datastation.multiprocess.io/
pkphilip 4y ago
This is really cool! I hope this gets more traction

355 points by mjadobson 4y ago

dang 4y ago

Related: Ultorg: A General-Purpose User Interface for Relational Databases (2020) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29647880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29647880 - Dec 2021 (13 comments)

spullara 4y ago

Reminds me a lot of https://sigmacomputing.com https://sigmacomputing.com

klysm 4y ago

Feels like GraphQL graphically combined with Excel. What Airtable could’ve been.

CyberRabbi 4y ago

Surprised there isn’t SQLite support. Perhaps it’s in the works. Also surprised this is a native app, would have expected a web application. In any case, compelling demo.

dhash 4y ago
A bunch of the database IO in it is JDBC based, so a web app probably isn’t going to happen.
- CyberRabbi 4y ago
  Database drivers are commoditized on all major language runtimes. I don’t think this is a reason for it not being a web app.
sigstoat 4y ago
> Also surprised this is a native app, would have expected a web application. who is going to pay for a database access tool that requires you punch an incoming hole in your firewall?
- tyingq 4y ago
  The same idea/designer applied to a web based CRUD app development tool would do well though. If Airtable/Quickbase/etc took some of these ideas, it would be much faster to churn out CRUD apps.

arjonagelhout 4y ago

Here’s some more information on Ultorg: > Ultorg creates general-purpose software that helps organizations manage their data. Based on a new method for interactive data visualization, our product combines ease-of-use with expressive power to allow end-users to query, display, and edit relational data, without resorting to custom programming. This fills a long-standing gap between spreadsheets and tailor-made database applications. [0] I find it inspiring that it has such readable and space-efficient interface, compared to current trends in many web apps. [0] https://ultorg.com https://ultorg.com

zozbot234 4y ago
> our product combines ease-of-use with expressive power to allow end-users to query, display, and edit relational data, without resorting to custom programming. This fills a long-standing gap between spreadsheets and tailor-made database applications. How does it compare to Access or LibreOffice Base? That's always been the next step once the spreadsheet proves inadequate.
- eirikbakke 4y ago
  Microsoft Access was an attempt to do the same: provide a user interface to a relational database. But it was never as easy to use as Excel, or the other office applications. There are still quite a few MS Access files around in government and legacy corporate datasets, and Ultorg can connect to them. Back when Ultorg was an academic project, we did a controlled user study comparing Ultorg's visual query interface (then called SIEUFERD) to Microsoft Access' query builder. Using the System Usability Scale, Ultorg's usability was in the 52th percentile (better than 52% of business software), while Microsoft Access was 6th(!) percentile (better than 6% of business software, i.e. worse than 94% of business software). (Source: https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/research/sieuferd_sigmod2016.pdf https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/research/sieuferd_sigmod... )
andrewgilmartin 4y ago
> I find it inspiring that it has such readable and space-efficient interface, compared to current trends in many web apps. Agree.

mdmglr 4y ago

What GUI toolkit is this using? Is this native?

nighthawk454 4y ago
Looks like Java Swing to me, or something in that area. This isn't open source, but the author's github has primarily Java projects including an old swingx fork. https://github.com/eirikbakke?tab=repositories https://github.com/eirikbakke?tab=repositories
- andai 4y ago
  Here's an amusing project: a program that benchmarks the user of a database software, to measure its ease of use. https://github.com/eirikbakke/SDEBM https://github.com/eirikbakke/SDEBM
eirikbakke 4y ago
It's Java/Swing--same stack as IntelliJ. Though the IDE-like parts (window system etc.) are from the NetBeans IDE, which has a very good application development platform. Also a shoutout to Karl Tauber's excellent FlatLAF library ( https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf ).

kall 4y ago

I've been using Hasura and TablePlus a lot lately, and actually wished for something that combines them. Hasura is great at understanding relations and making joins feel effortless and TablePlus is so good at making table editing feel as fast as excel. This looks like it's the thing, with some extra power thrown on top (formulas and nested layouts are nice!). The UI looks drab, but maybe that's ok? It means the functionality needs to be so strong it doesn't matter. It also looks super snappy which matters most. Something that Airtable has over relational database GUIs is lightweight enums and arrays of them. Sure you can model all that in SQL, but it's super useful to have it right inline. I hope this tool can pick up on a pattern like enum tables (like hasura) and provide UI that makes them look like tag list/select fields.

wilsonfiifi 4y ago
You should take a look at Directus [0]. It's much lighter than Hasura. [0] https://directus.io/ https://directus.io/
- kall 4y ago
  Hasura is a rock solid piece of software that does pretty much exactly the right thing for me. Performance exceeds expectations and it's never once crashed or been the source of a bug in years of use. "lighter" is not convincing. Directus looks cool in the CMS/no-code space, but as a backend API hub I don't see anything there that would tempt me over hasura.
acmecorps 4y ago
+1 for TablePlus! I absolutely love them for the fast editing as well as quick and dirty filters. Beats typing SQL for simple stuff. These quality of life features are really underrated. Absolutely worth the yearly fee!
- kall 4y ago
  I feel like they see themselves as a database management tool, but with just a few tweaks (good UI for working with relations), could be a FileMaker / Airtable contender.

fatih-erikli 4y ago

I like the concept of converting a database into an application. I don't know why but it reminded me the Aspmaker product, I've been using it in highschool times and I created so many admin panels with it.

fatih-erikli 4y ago
Also Delphi ecosystem had so many that kind of components such as DataGrid, DataView, etc. I remember at that time almost all the ERP, CRM applications were using Delphi and a component suite called Devexpress. Nowadays everybody using React :)

mwigdahl 4y ago

I've used the Ultorg beta for some experimental data UIs in house. It's still early days, but the tech is sound and the ability to construct multiple different views into the same set of data is very useful. Performance is pretty good overall given the complex queries it may have to juggle behind the scenes.

rad_gruchalski 4y ago

Someone who builds something like this in form of an Excel plugin will have a real winner. And if you do, and when you make your millions, please send me a check as a show of gratitude :)

password4321 4y ago
Are Excel plugins really a valid market? I know there are some but I wonder what the size of the entire segment is... 95%+ [<- random large percentage] of places will never allow installation of anything extra!
- tyingq 4y ago
  Essbase and its Excel plugin is a notable exception.
airstrike 4y ago
Excel plugins are unfit for this as the app enforces a perfect grid
- andai 4y ago
  In Google Sheets I can merge cells horizontally or vertically, does Excel not have that?
  - airstrike 4y ago
    Excel does, but merging is not a "best practice". It breaks navigation and causes all sorts of annoying UX issues. Still, it's unmanageable to replicate the grid in TFA (TFV?) by merging/un-merging cells

vosper 4y ago

Related: I'm enjoying the format of the HYTRADBOI (have you tried rubbing a database on it?) videos. It doesn't have that live-presentation feel of an in-person conference talk, but as I'm behind a screen anyway I don't really care about that. Give me the information succinctly, so I can watch it during a coffee break or whatever. The organiser of the conference had an interesting (and likeiwse pleasantly succinct!) post-mortem write up of the event, if anyone is interested https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/hytradboi-2022-postmortem/ https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/hytradboi-2022-po...

george_ciobanu 4y ago

Awesome tool the UI is really smart. Shameless plug: I built a similar, web-based tool for exploring a database at www.human.software

tacotime 4y ago
The sign up button does not seem to work so I was not able to try it. Also, the FAQ's on the home page are gibberish.
- george_ciobanu 4y ago
  Thank you for taking the time to check it out tacotime :-) I'm looking into why sign up didn't work for you, the UX where I allow people to sign up and sign in with the same UI might be at fault here (I don't see any failed signups in the backend). I will simplify it and update the FAQ. Grateful for your feedback.
  - george_ciobanu 4y ago
    Signup fixed, now updating the FAQ

airstrike 4y ago

This is literally my dream project I never had the time (or honestly technological expertise) to build... I have some other very opinionated ideas on a couple other layers to this problem that I hope to try to investigate in the next 12 months or so

HellsMaddy 4y ago

My first ever programming gig was converting a small business's back-office MS Access database into a CRUD web application. Sure, I made it look all pretty, but if this had been available back then, I would've been out of a job! Super impressive work!

lixtra 4y ago

I like the idea. But I‘m turned off by the fact that there is no pricing information. Just a request access action button. Maybe it’s vapor ware. Maybe they are checking market interest. Maybe they are looking for large pilot customers. I don’t see a product for me. The discussion here is still interesting and I‘m grateful for the mentioned alternatives. As for my pricing limits? Probably something between 10-50 USD per user per month, where at 10 USD I would very seriously look into it and at about 50 USD, I would have to carefully run the numbers.

2mol 4y ago
I filled out the form to get access, and I got it about a day later. It's free, and it didn't ask me about anything else. As far as I can tell it's above beta quality, so definitely not vaporware.
harrisi 4y ago
Here's my anecdote: I requested access and got a download link in an email from the founder shortly thereafter. I found out about it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30871660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30871660. You seem like someone that would be ideal for the private beta as a potential paying customer. Might help him out.

michaelsalim 4y ago

Man this looks amazing. I've been wondering why something like this doesn't exist yet - or at least with this level of quality. An alternative I use is Jailer[1]. It's great but can be quite confusing to use so I hope this takes off. [1] https://wisser.github.io/Jailer/ https://wisser.github.io/Jailer/

sagarjs 4y ago

I’m honestly really blown away by this. Are there other such tools out there that do a similar thing?

kostko 4y ago
Yes, tableau
qwertox 4y ago
This is the most interesting thing related to databases I've seen in years.
- abirch 4y ago
  I agree. This is better than DataGrip that my employer gives me.
anigbrowl 4y ago
https://dbeaver.io/ https://dbeaver.io/ is an open source tool with community and commercial builds that's quite mature and capable. I don't like SQL or database administration very much so it's become my go-to utility if I need to look at an unfamiliar DB. I've never had any problems with it though I keep a copy of SQL workbench around as it seems to perform better on large projects.
- majkinetor 4y ago
  dBeaver is awesome and the best thing its free and open source. There is enterprise version tat includes NoSQL databases and some other stuff. It also has vertical row view (swith by using TAB) that is great help when when you have lots of columns. If they ever add option to join columns like this app, it could pretty much replace it. Metabase is another one.
leetrout 4y ago
Datastation is sorta similar but in my brief experience the description is more aspirational at this stage. https://datastation.multiprocess.io/ https://datastation.multiprocess.io/

pkphilip 4y ago

This is really cool! I hope this gets more traction