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I think you're displaying an unconscious bias here by implying the 'top tier of musical talent is virtually identical in ability' and that this somehow excludes

I think you're displaying an unconscious bias here by implying the 'top tier of musical talent is virtually identical in ability' and that this somehow excludes various groups from that pool. First, that claim is highly questionable, and second, you are implying that some groups are less talented than others based solely on their identity. This kind of bias is rather common, it's rather redolant of paternalistic attitudes towards 'naturally inferior groups' who need 'inclusive policies' because they just can't make the grade on their own. If you happen to be unfamiliar with this argument, I'd recommend this: https://tarahenley.substack.com/p/bad-news https://tarahenley.substack.com/p/bad-news

mlyle 5y ago
I don't think that's quite what he said. I think he was saying that the top tier of current trained talent isn't equally diverse as the underlying population because of past biases in selection, and that making a blind selection from that pool likely perpetuates some of these biases. E.g. kids who grow up seeing symphonies that exclude people that look like them are less likely to pursue paths that lead toward them being in this pool. I'm not arguing in favor of affirmative action or a purposeful selection bias to fix this. It's a messy problem but it deserves thought and consideration.
l33t2328 5y ago
Not less talented, but certainly less able to spend time practicing(as a population) and without as many role models that look like them.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  One sees this a lot, but why do you filter interest in subjects by how much the proponents look like you -- don't you find it really limiting? In practice, how does this work, do you get in to someone's thing and then think "hang on, they're not like me, better stop being inspired". For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all. Clearly inspiration must work entirely differently for you as you say physical similarity is vital. Can you explain that? Is it prejudice?
  - l33t2328 5y ago
    We’re not talking about being inspired. We’re talking about things like access to resources, time to spend learning and practicing, and the availability of people who can mentor you.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all. And, if you're privileged-- society has given you the message you can do whatever you want-- that's OK. If you're in a system with racism embedded into various parts-- one rationally wonders: is there no one like me up there because there's racism filtering it? Is someone at a music school, competition, or academy, somewhere along the way going to decide that I don't really look like someone who's a top-tier violinist and going to exclude me (based on this same logic, in part)? If so, it might be better to select myself out before dedicating a whole lot of resources.

mlyle 5y ago

I don't think that's quite what he said. I think he was saying that the top tier of current trained talent isn't equally diverse as the underlying population because of past biases in selection, and that making a blind selection from that pool likely perpetuates some of these biases. E.g. kids who grow up seeing symphonies that exclude people that look like them are less likely to pursue paths that lead toward them being in this pool. I'm not arguing in favor of affirmative action or a purposeful selection bias to fix this. It's a messy problem but it deserves thought and consideration.

l33t2328 5y ago

Not less talented, but certainly less able to spend time practicing(as a population) and without as many role models that look like them.

pbhjpbhj 5y ago
One sees this a lot, but why do you filter interest in subjects by how much the proponents look like you -- don't you find it really limiting? In practice, how does this work, do you get in to someone's thing and then think "hang on, they're not like me, better stop being inspired". For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all. Clearly inspiration must work entirely differently for you as you say physical similarity is vital. Can you explain that? Is it prejudice?
- l33t2328 5y ago
  We’re not talking about being inspired. We’re talking about things like access to resources, time to spend learning and practicing, and the availability of people who can mentor you.
- mlyle 5y ago
  > For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all. And, if you're privileged-- society has given you the message you can do whatever you want-- that's OK. If you're in a system with racism embedded into various parts-- one rationally wonders: is there no one like me up there because there's racism filtering it? Is someone at a music school, competition, or academy, somewhere along the way going to decide that I don't really look like someone who's a top-tier violinist and going to exclude me (based on this same logic, in part)? If so, it might be better to select myself out before dedicating a whole lot of resources.