5 ms·

She wrote a book about this topic. So the claim that there is no substantiation is false. You just didn't bother to find out.

by ralfn 4y ago

tambourine_man 4y ago
Fair enough, I wasn't aware. I'll check it out. I think you mean this: “Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray” https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Math-Beauty-Physics-Astray/dp/0465094252 https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Math-Beauty-Physics-Astray/dp/04... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1KFTPqc0nQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1KFTPqc0nQ I still find the tone off putting, reminds me of the fox and the grapes fable, not sure if it's known to most cultures. Nevertheless, I'll watch the video and reexamine my opinion.
- ianai 4y ago
  I’m just generally increasingly off put by the internets incessant “quibbling”. This seemingly endless juxtaposition of antithesis to follow any thesis. At some point that becomes just more noise, and that can be used by an agenda. I still found her point valid and interesting and not at all noise. My takeaway is more that new physics might well be out of our energetic grasps until we build some much larger accelerators. Little idea how to convince society of the worth of that expense. Maybe if it can produce useful substances for industrial use. I’d love more knowledge on expansions to the periodic table, for example.
  - thechao 4y ago
    The HN-centric term for this is "middlebrow"; a good middlebrow filter is definitely required to navigate HN.
    - ianai 4y ago
      Can you elaborate?
      - gralx 4y ago
        ya i aint never heard the term b4 neither. colorful. wonder if middlebrow refers to furrowing between teh browz??>
      - pegasus 4y ago
        Searching HN for it brings up this explanation as the first hit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224
  - rad88 4y ago
    Adding more because I've read her book (not to quibble). I wouldn't say the point is that new physics is out of reach until we build more expensive accelerators. She herself is a theoretical physicist, has theories she'd like to see tested and proposes experiments that could do so. I think she's saying rather that particle physics involves enormous opportunity costs -- decades long / billion dollar experiments -- and that the research agenda is not scientifically justified, but is sociological and even aesthetic in origin.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    I am as well, because the internet isn’t designed for people to reach an objective consensus about reality nor does it account for the way humans really engage one another naturally. We need a platform designed to encourage people to reach understanding but anyone, myself included, who wants to do this is looking for a profit motive when some things are more important than profit as much as I hate to say it.
- robonerd 4y ago
  > fox and the grapes fable, not sure if it's known to most cultures. That's one of Aesop's fables. I believe it's widely known, at least in all western cultures. The fox can't reach the grapes he desires, so he concludes the grapes were sour and he didn't want them anyway.
  - tambourine_man 4y ago
    That's the one, yes.
    - thechao 4y ago
      The idiom "sour grapes" comes from that story!
- cwillu 4y ago
  If it's what I think it is, it's usually (in english at least) succinctly referred to as "Sour grapes"
matthewdgreen 4y ago
I’ve read a few of these articles and they all have basically the same format, which is similar enough that they’re not quite as interesting to read. First a headline “does the invention of Swiss Cheese mean that Cheddar Cheese is extinct?” Followed by a little bit of interesting and useful scientific summarization. Then onwards to a point about how we’re dealing with lots of theories and not enough empirical data, so the whole field is useless and also not worth spending time on. I would point out that lots of other important scientific fields have been in this situation before. Maybe there’s an interesting argument to the overfunding (but then again, developing theories is also pretty important!). But mostly it just feels like she’s made the point and while it’s an important point, getting a clear picture of the scientific results is more valuable than this particular opinion. (But I stress, it is her platform to do with as she wants.)
elorant 4y ago
While I don't generally like her tone, I liked her book a lot. It has a lot of stuff for further research, and there are at least a dozen book suggestions in there. On the other hand she attacks the "beautification" of physics' theories without providing any alternative approach whatsoever.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
- bardworx 4y ago
  How is attacking her character contributing to the conversation?

She wrote a book about this topic. So the claim that there is no substantiation is false. You just didn't bother to find out.

by ralfn 4y ago

She wrote a book about this topic. So the claim that there is no substantiation is false. You just didn't bother to find out.

tambourine_man 4y ago

Fair enough, I wasn't aware. I'll check it out. I think you mean this: “Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray” https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Math-Beauty-Physics-Astray/dp/0465094252 https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Math-Beauty-Physics-Astray/dp/04... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1KFTPqc0nQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1KFTPqc0nQ I still find the tone off putting, reminds me of the fox and the grapes fable, not sure if it's known to most cultures. Nevertheless, I'll watch the video and reexamine my opinion.

ianai 4y ago
I’m just generally increasingly off put by the internets incessant “quibbling”. This seemingly endless juxtaposition of antithesis to follow any thesis. At some point that becomes just more noise, and that can be used by an agenda. I still found her point valid and interesting and not at all noise. My takeaway is more that new physics might well be out of our energetic grasps until we build some much larger accelerators. Little idea how to convince society of the worth of that expense. Maybe if it can produce useful substances for industrial use. I’d love more knowledge on expansions to the periodic table, for example.
- thechao 4y ago
  The HN-centric term for this is "middlebrow"; a good middlebrow filter is definitely required to navigate HN.
  - ianai 4y ago
    Can you elaborate?
    - gralx 4y ago
      ya i aint never heard the term b4 neither. colorful. wonder if middlebrow refers to furrowing between teh browz??>
    - pegasus 4y ago
      Searching HN for it brings up this explanation as the first hit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5072224
- rad88 4y ago
  Adding more because I've read her book (not to quibble). I wouldn't say the point is that new physics is out of reach until we build more expensive accelerators. She herself is a theoretical physicist, has theories she'd like to see tested and proposes experiments that could do so. I think she's saying rather that particle physics involves enormous opportunity costs -- decades long / billion dollar experiments -- and that the research agenda is not scientifically justified, but is sociological and even aesthetic in origin.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  I am as well, because the internet isn’t designed for people to reach an objective consensus about reality nor does it account for the way humans really engage one another naturally. We need a platform designed to encourage people to reach understanding but anyone, myself included, who wants to do this is looking for a profit motive when some things are more important than profit as much as I hate to say it.
robonerd 4y ago
> fox and the grapes fable, not sure if it's known to most cultures. That's one of Aesop's fables. I believe it's widely known, at least in all western cultures. The fox can't reach the grapes he desires, so he concludes the grapes were sour and he didn't want them anyway.
- tambourine_man 4y ago
  That's the one, yes.
  - thechao 4y ago
    The idiom "sour grapes" comes from that story!
cwillu 4y ago
If it's what I think it is, it's usually (in english at least) succinctly referred to as "Sour grapes"

matthewdgreen 4y ago

I’ve read a few of these articles and they all have basically the same format, which is similar enough that they’re not quite as interesting to read. First a headline “does the invention of Swiss Cheese mean that Cheddar Cheese is extinct?” Followed by a little bit of interesting and useful scientific summarization. Then onwards to a point about how we’re dealing with lots of theories and not enough empirical data, so the whole field is useless and also not worth spending time on. I would point out that lots of other important scientific fields have been in this situation before. Maybe there’s an interesting argument to the overfunding (but then again, developing theories is also pretty important!). But mostly it just feels like she’s made the point and while it’s an important point, getting a clear picture of the scientific results is more valuable than this particular opinion. (But I stress, it is her platform to do with as she wants.)

elorant 4y ago

While I don't generally like her tone, I liked her book a lot. It has a lot of stuff for further research, and there are at least a dozen book suggestions in there. On the other hand she attacks the "beautification" of physics' theories without providing any alternative approach whatsoever.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bardworx 4y ago
How is attacking her character contributing to the conversation?