8 ms·

Where are the articles asking why men don't want to have children?

21 points by edent 5y ago

draw_down 5y ago
h2odragon 5y ago
The notion that a man has some say in the decision to have a child has been frowned upon for a while. "It's the womans choice" is the moral message in fiction that touches the subject, for like 40 years plus now.
- tomp 5y ago
  Not just “moral message”, also law in most of the West. After ejaculation, men have no more legal right about what happens with their sperm and resulting fetuses/children.
  - causality0 5y ago
    Or even before in some cases. In the United States a woman has raped a male child and then later successfully sued that boy for child support when he reached adulthood. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statut...
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      "now 24 and living in Phoenix, graduated from high school, went to college and became a medical assistant. "Then two years ago, the state served him with papers demanding child support. That's how he found out he had a then-6-year-old daughter." 24-2-6-9months seems to indicate he was at least 15 when the relevant sex happened and then it would have been legally consented. Also he wants to take up fatherhood(and he never pressed charges against her), so this case is not as simple as you stated. Otherwise it is quite ridiculous and outrageous, that there are really 2 standards when it comes to sex with minors and the consequences.
      - causality0 5y ago
        I wouldn't assume the "two years" and "six years old" statements are exact measurements.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    This view is so wrong on the facts, it is dangerous in large numbers.
    - tomp 5y ago
      This isn't a view, I'm stating facts / describing reality. I personally disagree with this state of affairs. Edit: from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft > In most jurisdictions, sperm theft is not illegal and usually has little bearing on issues like child support.
      - spacemanmatt 5y ago
        I do not think it is an accurate description of facts or legal reality. Telling people who might just believe you stuff like that can be needlessly inflammatory.
      - spacemanmatt 5y ago
        re: sperm theft is that a real social problem or a corner case?
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  Last I checked, you can't have a baby without unprotected sex. If you ejaculate inside a fertile woman, how do you not see that as a choice? Except in cases of men who are raped, it absolutely represents a choice on the part of the man. The fact that you can't force a woman to have an abortion (or to not have one) after the fact doesn't seem like an infringement on your rights.
  - thematrixturtle 5y ago
    The failure rate of contraception in real life is quite high, and this is not even accounting for various methods of "baby trapping" (the old pin in the condom etc). If you're a well-paid professional in NYC, the negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion-transaction/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion...
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      > negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. Ozer reportedly offered her tens of thousands of dollars to terminate her pregnancy, amid other messages, calling her “white trash” and telling her “I f***ing hate you.” ... He reportedly made the cash payment offer through a colleague. The Post reports that the colleague told Naymark, “He’d be willing to offer a lump sum of money to you . . . I’m sure he would have no problem with 50k-75,000+.” That's a "negotiated market rate"? From your link: The friend’s purported offer of “50k-75,000+” is not consistent with attorney-handled transactions What point exactly are you trying to make here?
    - Markoff 5y ago
      please enlighten me about quite high failure rate of properly installed IUD
      - thematrixturtle 5y ago
        And just how is the man supposed to know if it's properly installed or not? Remember the GP was saying it's always the man's fault if the woman gets pregnant.
- donthellbanme 5y ago
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  I am not sure what your point is. Is it, that a men should be able to decide, that a women shall carry a baby? Well, that used to be the idea, when women were considered objects owned by men. And yes, that idea is frowned upon in the west. Otherwise of course men today have a say in making babies. But since they cannot make a baby themself, they can only convince a female partner to make one. But no, they cannot and should not decide for the partner. Just like the female partner cannot decide to just make a baby. Unless she chooses sperm bank and artificial means.
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  The phrase "it's the woman's choice" in popular use is made in the implied scenario where the man wants a child. You hear it a lot because men forcing/coercing women into things has been a problem that got a lot of attention after the sexual revolution, and this case is especially dramatic since bearing a child is a particularly unfair burden for somebody who doesn't want it. If the man in the theoretical situation doesn't want a child and the woman does, then of course his opinion matters. The idea that women should be allowed to force men to have children is not, as your are implying, a problem of significant scale in popular culture or media (though, as usual with cultural/social/political wars, anything can be cherry-picked).
zmgsabst 5y ago
There aren’t any. Discussing the problems of men, as a group, is intentionally suppressed by women in positions of power and influence — such as in media and PR. Organized misandry is real.
- carschno 5y ago
  Can you name a few of these powerful women?
  - zmgsabst 5y ago
    Kathleen Kennedy would be an example of an outspoken misandrist in media. But the existence of a few at the top is different than discussing the overall demographics of a field, and both of those fields are primarily female — from education onwards.
    - resoluteteeth 5y ago
      Let me get this straight, you think that just because PR is around 60% of women, women working in PR are able to completely control public discourse for misandry, even if they aren't personally in positions of power, whereas the 95% of CEOs who are men and dictate what PR is actually being created aren't able to counteract that?
      - zmgsabst 5y ago
        Yes — a cursory review of corporate politics would indicate women in media/PR and HR dominate the discussion around sexism and keep men from being able to discuss their issues fairly. Example: How many businesses have an “affinity group” for women but not men? — why is it that only one sex has an organization representing their interests at the company?
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giantg2 5y ago
"Us dudes (assuming you are one) are also equally to blame." Are we though? If women wanted children and most men didn't, then women could just use sperm donors. The constraints in reproduction are heavily on the female side. Meaning one sperm donor could fertilize many eggs in a short time. Generally speaking a surrogate would only be carrying one child at a time. That said, the underlying reasons for not wanting kids are probably similar.
- edent 5y ago
  I know it is churlish to complain that people don't RTFA. But the first quote says: > Among parents and non-parents alike, men and women are equally likely to say they will probably not have kids (or more kids) in the future. It doesn't say what those reasons are.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Yeah, my assumption that the reasons are similar are based anecdotal experience and other articles - cost and lifestyle.
- 300bps 5y ago
  The premise of the article equating two things that are so obviously unequal leads me to believe it was written primarily for virtue signaling purposes.
  - edent 5y ago
    I've never really understood what that "insult" is supposed to mean. What's wrong with signalling how virtuous you are? OK, it is perhaps a little gauche to say "I donated more to charity than you" - but why shouldn't people talk about things which they think make them look good?
    - 300bps 5y ago
      What's wrong with signalling how virtuous you are? There are many things wrong with it. First, virtue is in the eye of the beholder. For example, watching a video of a lion chasing down a gazelle can be presented in a way to elicit sympathy for the poor gazelle or sympathy for the poor lion who is just trying to feed her starving cubs. Second, it serves to divide people. It says, “Like me. I’m on your team unlike those other people that we don’t like.” Third, it makes people waste time talking about non-issues. We’re spending time on a Saturday talking about the lack of articles about men choosing not to have children. We could be talking about something of actual substance but the OP was trying to score points with women so here we are. I could go on but that’s enough for today!
bananarchist 5y ago
I suppose this is where one accidental stumbles into incel justification. A man who wants to have a baby must find a woman willing to carry it for him, and then there’s all sorts of custody negations to be made. A woman who wants to have a baby can do so as easily as picking up a used condom off the ground at the bus station. At least, that’s the most disgusting way I could have portrayed the liberty with which a healthy wanting woman could have a child. But that’s why the only reporting they could find are on men who want babies but missed their opportunity. It’s not journalistic sexism (against women or men), it’s just a recognition of the real reproductive power women hold: if everyone has batter but you’re the only one with an oven, you decide when cakes are made.
tomp 5y ago
In the “relationship marketplace”, it’s women who decide whether to have children or not, and with whom (men don’t need to consent). But men are perceived to generally be the gatekeepers of marriage (not legally/biologically, but maybe because of supply and demand?). So instead of “why don’t women want children” you have articles “why don’t men want to marry” and “why are there no marriage worthy men”. Rest assured, whatever the media can blame on men, they do blame on men, but blaming men for not having kids would be laughed off as obvious propaganda.
- orwin 5y ago
  I disagree. I ended a relationship because i don't want to have children. A very good friend of mine ended two for the same reason. I don't know about others because it's really personnal and i wouldn't want to talk about it IRL with any friend, but i suspect another one of my friend to have done the same. And we have way more capital and possibility to live a decent life than 90% of the people in my country.
  - Bancakes 5y ago
    How old are you and your friend? Where would you find dates if you can brush off relationships like that? Genuine question as I'm in the same boat.
andrewclunn 5y ago
So there is an issue where women's agency is actually at the forefront, where their preferences and decisions are considered paramount, and... it's an example of sexism. Does that word even mean anything anymore? Who is the gatekeeper of sex? The woman. Who has to carry the child to term and has the option to terminate the pregnancy? The woman. Who can get a sperm donor and decide to reproduce effectively on their own? The woman. Oh why is reproduction seen as a female issue?? SEXISM!
DiggyJohnson 5y ago
As a 24 year old male, I’m surprised (and disappointed, internally) by how many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids. They see little in it other than work, stress, loss of freedom, and money. I understand it’s all those things but there’s good aspects, perhaps meaning itself in raising kids as well. I think it’s related to a collapse in the belief in death-do-us-part marriage in America’s secular middle class. At the same time, those that are outspoken about these matters also always seem to lack meaning or direction in their life. It’s seems a weird inverse to me, but I guess it makes some sense too: weak sense of purpose —> low expectations for the future —> disbelief in traditional customs, like monogamy and marriage, gender roles —> “I know I don’t want kids.” [*then proceed to some casual, horrible, judgy take about kids and people who choose to have kids]. —> The belief that everyone shares or ought to share this cynicism. A lot of it has to do with my surprise that other 23-25 year olds don’t really see themselves as adults. Regardless of financial (in)dependence, no college graduate should see themselves as anything short of a fully capable adult. I wish I could snap my fingers and make everyone see this as a cause instead of a symptom of various flavors of mild- and medium-severity mental illness. Something that addresses a lack of a sense of adulthood as a root cause. I feel like I may as well be described as a natalist for my beliefs, but it honestly seems like I have an “average” perspective on this until like ten minutes ago. I know things will change for myself and my friends as we get older. I don’t want kids right this moment, but will one day - and that day is not incomprehensibly far away. This is incredibly rambly, and these are seriously my friends, their positive qualities innumerable outweigh their antinatalist takes, especially considering I’m going to be dating any of them for other reasons. Just wanted to throw this perspective out there, especially about the growing sense of common despair for the future and how that interacts with a growing sense of meaninglessness in a secular world. Just sharing my experience here. These anecdotes come from other young college grads in my cohort (not-IT though).
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids ... those that are outspoken about these matters also always seem to lack meaning or direction in their life. So you're in your early 20s and in college, and you think the people around you lack meaning and direction? I mean, first of all 90% of the 20 year olds in college I know lack meaning in their life. That's why they're in college, to find purpose and community. Secondly, the mere fact that they are in college or graduated college means they don't lack direction. They are on a path, and that path is a time-tested one that has repeatedly proven to lead to personal actualization. Also being enrolled in college I would say they have high expectations for the future, the most obvious expectation I think is they would hope to graduate with a degree and use that degree to leverage better opportunities for themselves. Third, there is a such thing as a biological clock. It starts ticking loudly for women in their late 20s in my experience. Finally, I will implore you to at least consider the political climate. For the last 70 years, abortion (which is healthcare for women) has been considered constitutionally protected and has been available and accessible for women. Now women are being told that if they get an abortion, they should face criminal penalties like incarceration. The former POTUS intoned that "There has to be some form of punishment [for women having an abortion]". Today, some women in America have to travel over 600 miles across several states to get access to abortion. States are passing laws creating bounty hunters and vigilantes to harass women and the people who help them seek access to abortion. Laws are being passed that even restrict abortion in the case of rape and incest. The Supreme Court of the United States has okayed these laws and are universally expected to completely gut Roe vs. Wade this summer. All women are paying attention to this, including your friends. The message is loud and clear, and it's changing their relationship with men and the idea of sex. Ask your friends what they think about the pending loss of their right to an abortion. See if that makes them more or less likely for them to want to have children. For the women in my life, it makes them (more) nervous about the idea of sex altogether.
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erdos4d 5y ago
Wow. If the comments here are any reflection on the broader society, the US is in a weird place these days. Come to Latin America guys, the women here want kids and love engineers, you won't have any troubles at all.
- EForEndeavour 5y ago
  > If the comments here are any reflection on the broader society My guess is they aren't.
Kye 5y ago
A gentle, friendly reminder for people looking to soapbox here: In the same way the absurdity of /r/MensRights doesn't negate the validity and need for /r/MensLib, clickbait pop feminism doesn't negate the underlying legitimacy of issues taken to absurd extremes in popular discourse. I'm nonbinary as hell and have been accused of manspreading for being tired and not overthinking my crotch, so I Get It, but lay down some chillfire and try to follow the very wise guidelines of this space.
- monenp 5y ago
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rollsro 5y ago
I read recently that scientists have discovered a way to artificially grow sperm-producing cells from any other cell in the body, e.g. skin cells. If this hits the mainstream, then men will be reproductively obsolete. Women will be able to produce sperm cells in the lab, or eventually, in some home-based kit, to be artificially inseminated, from which only females will be born (due to the lack of Y chromosome sperms). It will be very interesting to see what happens next, once women can be completely independent of any male, even for reproductive success.
jimmydeans 5y ago
Bancakes 5y ago
Because you don't need to ask questions. Models like Lotka-Volterra were first proposed before WW1. The math is clear, you can't have infinite growth. Our population is not at an equilibrium because we fully depend on industrialisation and a constant, unnaturally great supply of resources. Those resources are a shaky foundation - can I afford a car, can I afford a house, can I afford to move for a better job, can I afford college for my kids, etc. Some people expect to have a better life than a european peasant. Sickness and hygiene aside, it was a given to own a house, work the field or raise animals, praise the Lord, and marry young.
satisfice 5y ago
You know why there are few articles about men not wanting to have children: because children follow nearly automatically from happy and stable unions, unless the women don’t want kids. Men are irrelevant. If a woman wants a child, she probably doesn’t stay with a man who doesn’t. And the men who never want kids therefore do little to suppress the birthrate. If men could force women to have their children, only then would it be relevant to ask why they are opting not to. I have one son. I don’t have more because my wife felt she couldn’t cope with more.
quantified 5y ago
Why is it even a “problem”? There are more than enough people in the world as it is. Our economies are built as pyramid schemes, our overall consumption levels ever-growing. Better to have fewer people from choice earlier than from tragic options later.
bradlys 5y ago
Even amounts of men and women express not wanting children in surveys. Reasons behind this are presumed to be for lifestyle or economic. In the stats though - about 25% of men today don’t have children. Less than 15% of women don’t have children. There are 50%+ more men without children than women. If you talked to these men though, you’d know it’s not because they didn’t want kids but because they never were able to have them. No woman wanted to have kids with them. This is true for our history as well. Men had children about 40% of the time back in the old days. Women still hit the same amount as they did before - ~80%. We hit a recent phenomenon where men were catching up with women. I think we’ll continue to see a decline in men having children as the stats show this trend continuing to go down. This isn’t because men don’t want children - it’s mostly because the women don’t want children with the men available to them. We can see this same pattern with sex for young men and women. The rate of sexlessness for young men is growing exceptionally fast compared to young women. It’s not because men don’t want sex - it’s because women don’t want sex with the men available to them.
tyronehed 5y ago

21 points by edent 5y ago

The notion that a man has some say in the decision to have a child has been frowned upon for a while. "It's the womans choice" is the moral message in fiction that touches the subject, for like 40 years plus now.

tomp 5y ago
Not just “moral message”, also law in most of the West. After ejaculation, men have no more legal right about what happens with their sperm and resulting fetuses/children.
- causality0 5y ago
  Or even before in some cases. In the United States a woman has raped a male child and then later successfully sued that boy for child support when he reached adulthood. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statut...
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "now 24 and living in Phoenix, graduated from high school, went to college and became a medical assistant. "Then two years ago, the state served him with papers demanding child support. That's how he found out he had a then-6-year-old daughter." 24-2-6-9months seems to indicate he was at least 15 when the relevant sex happened and then it would have been legally consented. Also he wants to take up fatherhood(and he never pressed charges against her), so this case is not as simple as you stated. Otherwise it is quite ridiculous and outrageous, that there are really 2 standards when it comes to sex with minors and the consequences.
    - causality0 5y ago
      I wouldn't assume the "two years" and "six years old" statements are exact measurements.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  This view is so wrong on the facts, it is dangerous in large numbers.
  - tomp 5y ago
    This isn't a view, I'm stating facts / describing reality. I personally disagree with this state of affairs. Edit: from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_theft > In most jurisdictions, sperm theft is not illegal and usually has little bearing on issues like child support.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      I do not think it is an accurate description of facts or legal reality. Telling people who might just believe you stuff like that can be needlessly inflammatory.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      re: sperm theft is that a real social problem or a corner case?
schwartzworld 5y ago
Last I checked, you can't have a baby without unprotected sex. If you ejaculate inside a fertile woman, how do you not see that as a choice? Except in cases of men who are raped, it absolutely represents a choice on the part of the man. The fact that you can't force a woman to have an abortion (or to not have one) after the fact doesn't seem like an infringement on your rights.
- thematrixturtle 5y ago
  The failure rate of contraception in real life is quite high, and this is not even accounting for various methods of "baby trapping" (the old pin in the condom etc). If you're a well-paid professional in NYC, the negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion-transaction/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/12/12/failed-abortion...
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > negotiated market rate for an abortion is well north of $50k. Ozer reportedly offered her tens of thousands of dollars to terminate her pregnancy, amid other messages, calling her “white trash” and telling her “I f***ing hate you.” ... He reportedly made the cash payment offer through a colleague. The Post reports that the colleague told Naymark, “He’d be willing to offer a lump sum of money to you . . . I’m sure he would have no problem with 50k-75,000+.” That's a "negotiated market rate"? From your link: The friend’s purported offer of “50k-75,000+” is not consistent with attorney-handled transactions What point exactly are you trying to make here?
  - Markoff 5y ago
    please enlighten me about quite high failure rate of properly installed IUD
    - thematrixturtle 5y ago
      And just how is the man supposed to know if it's properly installed or not? Remember the GP was saying it's always the man's fault if the woman gets pregnant.
donthellbanme 5y ago
hutzlibu 5y ago
I am not sure what your point is. Is it, that a men should be able to decide, that a women shall carry a baby? Well, that used to be the idea, when women were considered objects owned by men. And yes, that idea is frowned upon in the west. Otherwise of course men today have a say in making babies. But since they cannot make a baby themself, they can only convince a female partner to make one. But no, they cannot and should not decide for the partner. Just like the female partner cannot decide to just make a baby. Unless she chooses sperm bank and artificial means.
happytoexplain 5y ago
The phrase "it's the woman's choice" in popular use is made in the implied scenario where the man wants a child. You hear it a lot because men forcing/coercing women into things has been a problem that got a lot of attention after the sexual revolution, and this case is especially dramatic since bearing a child is a particularly unfair burden for somebody who doesn't want it. If the man in the theoretical situation doesn't want a child and the woman does, then of course his opinion matters. The idea that women should be allowed to force men to have children is not, as your are implying, a problem of significant scale in popular culture or media (though, as usual with cultural/social/political wars, anything can be cherry-picked).

zmgsabst 5y ago

There aren’t any. Discussing the problems of men, as a group, is intentionally suppressed by women in positions of power and influence — such as in media and PR. Organized misandry is real.

carschno 5y ago
Can you name a few of these powerful women?
- zmgsabst 5y ago
  Kathleen Kennedy would be an example of an outspoken misandrist in media. But the existence of a few at the top is different than discussing the overall demographics of a field, and both of those fields are primarily female — from education onwards.
  - resoluteteeth 5y ago
    Let me get this straight, you think that just because PR is around 60% of women, women working in PR are able to completely control public discourse for misandry, even if they aren't personally in positions of power, whereas the 95% of CEOs who are men and dictate what PR is actually being created aren't able to counteract that?
    - zmgsabst 5y ago
      Yes — a cursory review of corporate politics would indicate women in media/PR and HR dominate the discussion around sexism and keep men from being able to discuss their issues fairly. Example: How many businesses have an “affinity group” for women but not men? — why is it that only one sex has an organization representing their interests at the company?
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giantg2 5y ago

"Us dudes (assuming you are one) are also equally to blame." Are we though? If women wanted children and most men didn't, then women could just use sperm donors. The constraints in reproduction are heavily on the female side. Meaning one sperm donor could fertilize many eggs in a short time. Generally speaking a surrogate would only be carrying one child at a time. That said, the underlying reasons for not wanting kids are probably similar.

edent 5y ago
I know it is churlish to complain that people don't RTFA. But the first quote says: > Among parents and non-parents alike, men and women are equally likely to say they will probably not have kids (or more kids) in the future. It doesn't say what those reasons are.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Yeah, my assumption that the reasons are similar are based anecdotal experience and other articles - cost and lifestyle.
300bps 5y ago
The premise of the article equating two things that are so obviously unequal leads me to believe it was written primarily for virtue signaling purposes.
- edent 5y ago
  I've never really understood what that "insult" is supposed to mean. What's wrong with signalling how virtuous you are? OK, it is perhaps a little gauche to say "I donated more to charity than you" - but why shouldn't people talk about things which they think make them look good?
  - 300bps 5y ago
    What's wrong with signalling how virtuous you are? There are many things wrong with it. First, virtue is in the eye of the beholder. For example, watching a video of a lion chasing down a gazelle can be presented in a way to elicit sympathy for the poor gazelle or sympathy for the poor lion who is just trying to feed her starving cubs. Second, it serves to divide people. It says, “Like me. I’m on your team unlike those other people that we don’t like.” Third, it makes people waste time talking about non-issues. We’re spending time on a Saturday talking about the lack of articles about men choosing not to have children. We could be talking about something of actual substance but the OP was trying to score points with women so here we are. I could go on but that’s enough for today!

bananarchist 5y ago

I suppose this is where one accidental stumbles into incel justification. A man who wants to have a baby must find a woman willing to carry it for him, and then there’s all sorts of custody negations to be made. A woman who wants to have a baby can do so as easily as picking up a used condom off the ground at the bus station. At least, that’s the most disgusting way I could have portrayed the liberty with which a healthy wanting woman could have a child. But that’s why the only reporting they could find are on men who want babies but missed their opportunity. It’s not journalistic sexism (against women or men), it’s just a recognition of the real reproductive power women hold: if everyone has batter but you’re the only one with an oven, you decide when cakes are made.

tomp 5y ago

In the “relationship marketplace”, it’s women who decide whether to have children or not, and with whom (men don’t need to consent). But men are perceived to generally be the gatekeepers of marriage (not legally/biologically, but maybe because of supply and demand?). So instead of “why don’t women want children” you have articles “why don’t men want to marry” and “why are there no marriage worthy men”. Rest assured, whatever the media can blame on men, they do blame on men, but blaming men for not having kids would be laughed off as obvious propaganda.

orwin 5y ago
I disagree. I ended a relationship because i don't want to have children. A very good friend of mine ended two for the same reason. I don't know about others because it's really personnal and i wouldn't want to talk about it IRL with any friend, but i suspect another one of my friend to have done the same. And we have way more capital and possibility to live a decent life than 90% of the people in my country.
- Bancakes 5y ago
  How old are you and your friend? Where would you find dates if you can brush off relationships like that? Genuine question as I'm in the same boat.

andrewclunn 5y ago

So there is an issue where women's agency is actually at the forefront, where their preferences and decisions are considered paramount, and... it's an example of sexism. Does that word even mean anything anymore? Who is the gatekeeper of sex? The woman. Who has to carry the child to term and has the option to terminate the pregnancy? The woman. Who can get a sperm donor and decide to reproduce effectively on their own? The woman. Oh why is reproduction seen as a female issue?? SEXISM!

DiggyJohnson 5y ago

As a 24 year old male, I’m surprised (and disappointed, internally) by how many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids. They see little in it other than work, stress, loss of freedom, and money. I understand it’s all those things but there’s good aspects, perhaps meaning itself in raising kids as well. I think it’s related to a collapse in the belief in death-do-us-part marriage in America’s secular middle class. At the same time, those that are outspoken about these matters also always seem to lack meaning or direction in their life. It’s seems a weird inverse to me, but I guess it makes some sense too: weak sense of purpose —> low expectations for the future —> disbelief in traditional customs, like monogamy and marriage, gender roles —> “I know I don’t want kids.” [*then proceed to some casual, horrible, judgy take about kids and people who choose to have kids]. —> The belief that everyone shares or ought to share this cynicism. A lot of it has to do with my surprise that other 23-25 year olds don’t really see themselves as adults. Regardless of financial (in)dependence, no college graduate should see themselves as anything short of a fully capable adult. I wish I could snap my fingers and make everyone see this as a cause instead of a symptom of various flavors of mild- and medium-severity mental illness. Something that addresses a lack of a sense of adulthood as a root cause. I feel like I may as well be described as a natalist for my beliefs, but it honestly seems like I have an “average” perspective on this until like ten minutes ago. I know things will change for myself and my friends as we get older. I don’t want kids right this moment, but will one day - and that day is not incomprehensibly far away. This is incredibly rambly, and these are seriously my friends, their positive qualities innumerable outweigh their antinatalist takes, especially considering I’m going to be dating any of them for other reasons. Just wanted to throw this perspective out there, especially about the growing sense of common despair for the future and how that interacts with a growing sense of meaninglessness in a secular world. Just sharing my experience here. These anecdotes come from other young college grads in my cohort (not-IT though).

ModernMech 5y ago
> many of my female friends in college are outspoken about never wanting or having kids ... those that are outspoken about these matters also always seem to lack meaning or direction in their life. So you're in your early 20s and in college, and you think the people around you lack meaning and direction? I mean, first of all 90% of the 20 year olds in college I know lack meaning in their life. That's why they're in college, to find purpose and community. Secondly, the mere fact that they are in college or graduated college means they don't lack direction. They are on a path, and that path is a time-tested one that has repeatedly proven to lead to personal actualization. Also being enrolled in college I would say they have high expectations for the future, the most obvious expectation I think is they would hope to graduate with a degree and use that degree to leverage better opportunities for themselves. Third, there is a such thing as a biological clock. It starts ticking loudly for women in their late 20s in my experience. Finally, I will implore you to at least consider the political climate. For the last 70 years, abortion (which is healthcare for women) has been considered constitutionally protected and has been available and accessible for women. Now women are being told that if they get an abortion, they should face criminal penalties like incarceration. The former POTUS intoned that "There has to be some form of punishment [for women having an abortion]". Today, some women in America have to travel over 600 miles across several states to get access to abortion. States are passing laws creating bounty hunters and vigilantes to harass women and the people who help them seek access to abortion. Laws are being passed that even restrict abortion in the case of rape and incest. The Supreme Court of the United States has okayed these laws and are universally expected to completely gut Roe vs. Wade this summer. All women are paying attention to this, including your friends. The message is loud and clear, and it's changing their relationship with men and the idea of sex. Ask your friends what they think about the pending loss of their right to an abortion. See if that makes them more or less likely for them to want to have children. For the women in my life, it makes them (more) nervous about the idea of sex altogether.

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erdos4d 5y ago

Wow. If the comments here are any reflection on the broader society, the US is in a weird place these days. Come to Latin America guys, the women here want kids and love engineers, you won't have any troubles at all.

EForEndeavour 5y ago
> If the comments here are any reflection on the broader society My guess is they aren't.

Kye 5y ago

A gentle, friendly reminder for people looking to soapbox here: In the same way the absurdity of /r/MensRights doesn't negate the validity and need for /r/MensLib, clickbait pop feminism doesn't negate the underlying legitimacy of issues taken to absurd extremes in popular discourse. I'm nonbinary as hell and have been accused of manspreading for being tired and not overthinking my crotch, so I Get It, but lay down some chillfire and try to follow the very wise guidelines of this space.

monenp 5y ago

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rollsro 5y ago

I read recently that scientists have discovered a way to artificially grow sperm-producing cells from any other cell in the body, e.g. skin cells. If this hits the mainstream, then men will be reproductively obsolete. Women will be able to produce sperm cells in the lab, or eventually, in some home-based kit, to be artificially inseminated, from which only females will be born (due to the lack of Y chromosome sperms). It will be very interesting to see what happens next, once women can be completely independent of any male, even for reproductive success.

jimmydeans 5y ago

Bancakes 5y ago

Because you don't need to ask questions. Models like Lotka-Volterra were first proposed before WW1. The math is clear, you can't have infinite growth. Our population is not at an equilibrium because we fully depend on industrialisation and a constant, unnaturally great supply of resources. Those resources are a shaky foundation - can I afford a car, can I afford a house, can I afford to move for a better job, can I afford college for my kids, etc. Some people expect to have a better life than a european peasant. Sickness and hygiene aside, it was a given to own a house, work the field or raise animals, praise the Lord, and marry young.

satisfice 5y ago

You know why there are few articles about men not wanting to have children: because children follow nearly automatically from happy and stable unions, unless the women don’t want kids. Men are irrelevant. If a woman wants a child, she probably doesn’t stay with a man who doesn’t. And the men who never want kids therefore do little to suppress the birthrate. If men could force women to have their children, only then would it be relevant to ask why they are opting not to. I have one son. I don’t have more because my wife felt she couldn’t cope with more.

quantified 5y ago

Why is it even a “problem”? There are more than enough people in the world as it is. Our economies are built as pyramid schemes, our overall consumption levels ever-growing. Better to have fewer people from choice earlier than from tragic options later.

bradlys 5y ago

Even amounts of men and women express not wanting children in surveys. Reasons behind this are presumed to be for lifestyle or economic. In the stats though - about 25% of men today don’t have children. Less than 15% of women don’t have children. There are 50%+ more men without children than women. If you talked to these men though, you’d know it’s not because they didn’t want kids but because they never were able to have them. No woman wanted to have kids with them. This is true for our history as well. Men had children about 40% of the time back in the old days. Women still hit the same amount as they did before - ~80%. We hit a recent phenomenon where men were catching up with women. I think we’ll continue to see a decline in men having children as the stats show this trend continuing to go down. This isn’t because men don’t want children - it’s mostly because the women don’t want children with the men available to them. We can see this same pattern with sex for young men and women. The rate of sexlessness for young men is growing exceptionally fast compared to young women. It’s not because men don’t want sex - it’s because women don’t want sex with the men available to them.

tyronehed 5y ago