13 ms·

Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

117 points by tomohawk 4y ago

lamontcg 4y ago
There should be alarm bells ringing that we're running the whole country poorly. These kinds of symptoms are pervasive. Everyone laughs at the poorly maintained Russian tanks without realizing we're heading that direction.
analog31 4y ago
Paint them brown in the first place. Or psychedelic. Disclosure: My first car was rust-colored, in more ways than one.
bannedbybros 4y ago
catern 4y ago
c7DJTLrn 4y ago
l-lousy 4y ago
kashunstva 4y ago
mysterydip 4y ago
> "An AKE like the Shepard should have 129 crewmembers in perfect conditions but they are now running at roughly 80% because of manning problems,” said another MSC officer. “About 20 in the deck department can be assigned to rust prevent duty. However, that crew is also assigned to Underway Replenishment duties. Three Unreps could easily eat away an entire day. When we return to port can we OSPHO? No. Can I send a crewmember over the side to chip? No. Navy rules prevent it." Sounds like a classic case of trying to do the same job with less people, and management only taking notice when the issue becomes public-facing.
- Victerius 4y ago
  Manning problems have existed for a decade, if not more. The Navy holds the sad record of being the worst managed branch of service. Steep budget cuts in the 1990s and again during sequestration have had severe effects that the Navy hasn't yet recovered from. But I don't know whether that's the cause of the problem. The Navy is an especially unique branch given that it's the only service that revolves around a relatively small number of very large, very expensive assets. The Army doesn't revolve around its tanks, and the Air Force, while it revolves around planes, there are a lot more planes in the Air Force than ships in the Navy. Congress is not without blame for the Navy's problems either, apart from the budget cuts. Congress has the last word on all programs and procurement. The Littoral Combat Ships should never have seen the light of day for instance, but Congress pushed the program through, and now the ships are useless (and still being built!) But there is hope on the horizon. The submarine construction programs (Virginia SSNs and Columbia SSBNs) are proceeding smoothly, as are the Flight III destroyers. DDG(X), the future replacement of the Arleigh-Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga-class cruisers, is in development, and the first Constellation-class frigates will soon be laid down.
  - iforgetti 4y ago
    Where do you keep up with information like this? Do you have to work in the space or do you read certain periodicals or something else?
    - Victerius 4y ago
      news.usni.org is a prime source of information regarding Navy matters. Defensenews, Breakingdefense are also good all-purpose sources.
    - ms512 4y ago
      Jane's News [1] is a decent source for defense information. [1] https://www.janes.com/defence-news/ https://www.janes.com/defence-news/
  - edmundsauto 4y ago
Victerius 4y ago
The Navy builds its ships with steel, and the grades of steel used in the construction can experience rust. Solutions: Switch to 100% stainless steel. Stainless steel is an alloy and contains a minimum of 11% chromium. This allows the formation of a protective film of chromium oxide which acts as a shield against rust. The protective film will re-form if damaged. Corrosion resistance can be further enhanced with the addition of nickel. Use a weathering steel, also known as “COR-TEN” steel which contains up to 21% of alloying elements such as chromium, copper, nickel, and phosphorous. The alloys form a protective rust patina which reduces the corrosion rate with time. COR-TEN steel tends to be cheaper than stainless steel. Galvanized steel. Galvanizing is a method of rust prevention. This is accomplished through hot-dip galvanizing or electroplating. The iron or steel object is coated in a thin layer of zinc. This stops oxygen and water from reaching the metal underneath but the zinc also acts as a sacrificial metal. Zinc is more reactive than iron, so it oxidizes in preference to the iron object. The zinc oxide layer prevents the formation of iron oxide, thus eliminating the possibility of rust forming.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  That's a good idea. Everyone knows chromium does not contain any Rust. Joking aside: There are many ways to prevent rust, though I think environmental concerns are also an issue. Galvanising might leak heavy metals into the sea? And chrome is also a pollutant. Iron is not.
- incompatible 4y ago
  Stainless steel is pretty expensive, but I suppose it would be no big deal for the US Navy. I thought they used sacrificial anodes to stop rust.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    I don't think those anodes are 100% effective though? I've seen many ships that have them and still have signs of rusting.
  - wiredfool 4y ago
    I think that the sacrificial anodes work for places where it’s a hull in electrolyte, it wouldn’t necessarily work for salt spray in the superstructure.
newsclues 4y ago
I think this is a good lesson that can be applied to offices and data centres. If you run your teams and equipment beyond the threshold, your equipment and team will suffer and degrade your abilities. This is a failure of leadership, and it was avoidable!
- epolanski 4y ago
  I also like the part of looking sharp, this is also a non-zero factor in any field, including IT. Between two professionals, if one looks sharp, clean and fit, while the other one does not, it is hard not to conclude one has also more self discipline.
  - edmundsauto 4y ago
    This bias is a consequence of what Kahneman called “What You See Is All There Is.” It’s bad logic and ascribing signal when it’s actually projections of the observer. That isn’t to say there is no effect - people might start to see themselves as more disciplined if they look sharp. “Look good, play good”, as my coach used to say.
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      I love that book, but I’m not sure Kahneman would agree that it applies here when we are evaluating not whether an individual looks sharp (imagine a salesperson on commission) but instead whether the individual+their work/domain/communication is sharp. I find that to be a very valuable signal, and I’m struggling to imagine how I could be disagree with on this.
      - B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago
        Well, it's fictional - the disheveled detective who always gets his culprit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo
      - edmundsauto 4y ago
red2awn 4y ago
donthellbanme 4y ago
" If crews can’t use new types of paint, If crews are restricted from using OSPHO (a mild acid used to clean up rust stains) in port or bosuns chairs over the side if we don’t have enough supply ships or crew on those supply ships if crews are committing suicide and arson because of conditions at shipyards tasked with painting old ships if the Navy doesn’t seek out the advice of commercial professionals at companies that have solved the problem like Shell if the Army and Air Force continue to get all the attention in Ukraine despite the heaviest fighting taking place in the littorals and ports – I could go on – how can individual sailors “stand up and be ready” to combat rust?" 1. I hope I'm reading this wrong. I can guarantee Sailors arn't committing suicide, or arson, because of a fugly rusty ship. 2. If their is any real problem it's the way our Navy treats Sailors, and lies to them upon signing that contract, and tries to renig on any lofty promises upon signing. I once heard the Navy will send you to school upon enlisting. Navy, "Become a Lawyer. We pay for it.". This commercial was around that movie with Tom Cruise playing the spiffy lawyer in his whites going up against Jack Nicholson. "You can't handle the truth!". Forget the name. I looked it up. The military at the time was picking up tuition for 8 enlisted men to go to law school. The guys are angry because once they enlisted, it wasen't the opportunity they thought it would be. Period.
- CyanBird 4y ago
  > 1. I hope I'm reading this wrong. I can guarantee Sailors arn't committing suicide, or arson, because of a fugly rusty ship. Sad to see that HN discussions stow so low so as to not discuss the things the piece actually mentions > The situation is not much better for American shipyards. On the morning of April 11, Captain Brent Gaut, the commander of the USS George Washington — an aircraft carrier undergoing major shipyard work at Newport News, Virginia — got on the ship’s intercom to announce that two sailors had died, and Gaut was alerting the crew that those deaths were the eighth and ninth suicides the ship had experienced in the nine months the ship has been stuck in shipyard. What was the Navy’s response? Gilday’s top enlisted adviser, Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy Russell Smith, told sailors they need to do a better job “managing expectations” then he chastised them by saying “What you’re not doing is sleeping in a foxhole like a Marine.” > This type of “toughen up, stand up” approach sounds eerily familiar to those of us who worked offshore in the years leading up to the Deepwater Horizon catastrophe. > In 2020, while undergoing shipyard repair in San Diego, conditions aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard were so bad a crew member set fire to the ship leading to the ship’s destruction. The responsible crew member was arrested but – despite investigators finding bad morale, delays, and poor training – the ship’s captain (and his chain of command) was left in charge and was allowed to celebrate the decommissioning of the ship he had lost. Please, next time just review the piece
executive 4y ago
livinginfear 4y ago
- kristiandupont 4y ago
  Sure, and prices used to be reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    Is there every a situation where an individual can complain about institutional regression at a large scale without facing this dismissal? I’m starting to associate this point with people flippantly dismissing a (potentially) reasonable point. Look, Im familiar with all the aphorisms about ‘kids these days’ and ‘soft men’ and the like. There’s a lot of wisdom in avoiding cynicism, but to avoid all negative observations of this sort is just as naive. Many great states and institutions fizzle out with little fanfare, under mediocre leadership and execution.
  - drxzcl 4y ago
    Also, large armies have been vehicles of social change since napoleonic times at least. You bring young men from all over the country together, from different backgrounds and different social classes, and have them depend on each other for their very survival. The GP is either an outright troll, or has bought into a political propaganda version of what armed forces are like.
sevensor 4y ago
This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normalized deviance. Many organizations don't suffer from these problems to nearly such an extent. I've worked in reasonably functional organizations, and ones that are disfunctional in different ways. Why does this malady strike the U.S. Navy and healthcare so severely? Am I viewing this from too great a distance? Are these actually separate forms of institutional dysfunction?
- ethbr0 4y ago
  > Why does this malady strike the U.S. Navy and healthcare so severely? Both industries substantially outsourced functionality in the 90s in an attempt to cut costs. Consequently, they are now less empowered (vs historical levels) to effect change in their own processes in a timely manner. Large organizations need to pay more attention to ossification of processes as a serious future risk, that needs to be balanced against immediate savings.
- killjoywashere 4y ago
  As a Navy physician who has dealt with COVID and fatigue, I think the chronic low pay contributes to a lack of people which leads to overwork, exhaustion, a sort of "this is my lot in life" acceptance of mild to moderate depression. And you get to the point you just look away for your own sanity. Healthcare workers get paid less as you get closer to the coasts. And military gets only very modest pay adjustments for housing costs. A colonel in Kansas may live like a king, but a captain in San Diego can't afford a house. Edit: I also agree with the posts about outsourcing leading to ossification and rigid stratification. You want rigid stratification? Try military medicine.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Great point! At the end of the day, we're talking about people. Highly trained people in Navy, medicine, and Navy medicine cases. And people have limits, because they need lives and aren't robots. Morale and aligning work to allow for happiness in life is a requirement for people bringing their best to work. If you ask people to toughen up and suffer through the suck to get the job done... there'd better be an eventual light at the end of that tunnel. Otherwise, it's just a death march. PS: Thank you for your service, and especially through COVID.
senectus1 4y ago
1970-01-01 4y ago
Rust-free? How over budget should we go trying to make an all-aluminum and carbon fiber carrier? Is fiberglass ok or are we planning on making submarines too?
- tomohawk 4y ago
  If you read the article, they talk about how commercial merchant marine vessels use modern coatings and materials, but that the US Navy has not approved their use after several years. Another failure. The modern materials are required since the EPA outlawed the coatings they used to use that actually worked.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    I thought the military had exemptions on EPA compliance for stuff. For example: US Army tanks use depleted uranium projectiles. Those are definitely not good for the environment.
    - sgent 4y ago
      The military must follow all EPA regulations as a general order, but someone at a high enough rank in the pentagon can make an exception for a specific rule/reg.
      - sidewndr46 4y ago
        I'm scratching my head as to why someone in the pentagon wouldn't do this for hull maintenance on seagoing vessels. It seems rather important.
        msrenee 4y ago
        Probably because the chemicals they were using are pretty nasty and were used in high volumes. They were doing a lot of damage to the environment and there are alternatives. They just haven't been approved yet for use by the navy. It's not a good look to continue using damaging, outdated methods because your bureaucracy is so bad that can't utilize new technology.
americnt 4y ago
Was this upvoted by bots because of "Rust" in the title? Who cares if the US Navy's ships look like crap, this isn't a particularly intellectually stimulating topic, nor is it one that is of much interest outside of the US.
- 1970-01-01 4y ago
  The Chief of Naval Operations seems to care quite a lot. He commands a fairly large amount of respect in the entire world.
  - Issaclabs 4y ago
    If I were to ask 10,000 people selected randomly from outside the US. What percentage do you think would be able to name the naval commander of the US? I'd bet it's very close to zero.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      It’d be very close to zero in the US too.
    - 1970-01-01 4y ago
      13%
- __m 4y ago
  The military is is very much beloved by the US population and present at big sport events, in Hollywood, on campuses etc. I'm not surprised these topics are getting traction on HN.
Simplicitas 4y ago
How about reducing the Navy budget because current spending is beyond wasteful for equipment that's hardly used since wars are becoming so rare. For the minimum set of future ships, sure, lets look for technology that'll save tax-payers money.
- ciarcode 4y ago
  These days remember us that is better to have top class military. I’m sad about it, but this is the reality, I guess.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Tao332 4y ago
  > wars are becoming so rare Arguably, in a nuclear era, this state of affairs is managed by maintaining the undeniable obviousness of mutually assured destruction. Securing peace by preparing for war.
boomboomsubban 4y ago
Wouldn't decommissioning solve these problems far better than building more new ships? Strange that is never a solution suggested by the navy.
- enkid 4y ago
  The Navy is trying to decomission ships faster than normal right now. https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2022/04/04/us-navy-reveals-ships-facing-potential-decommissioning-next-year/
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  The second a steel ship leaves the shipyard it is rusting. This is not about old rusty ships, it's about the normal routine maintenance that all steel ships require, and the Navy's seeming inability to do it.
- eunos 4y ago
  Politically bad move since Chinese is rapidly increasing their fleet size. Sure there are many are other components of power like quality, tradition, supply chain and so on. But I'm emphasizing on Politic here.
  - bannedbybros 4y ago
Jowsey 4y ago
Rust-free? That doesn't sound very safe
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  But at least their compile times would go down.
jwmhjwmh 4y ago
throwaway290 4y ago
What happened to appearing weak when you're strong, and strong when you're weak? (Unless this is a submarine targeting enemy researchers?) Making warships look aesthetically pleasing strikes me as a little silly. That said, safety and mental health sounds like vital issues to address.
- TecoAndJix 4y ago
  A cool example of power projection: The Great White Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_White_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_White_Fleet
- Tao332 4y ago
  I'm not in a navy and I think the rusty ships look more intimidating. Though I guess I could be abus-- I mean, disciplined into thinking unmade beds, unshined shoes, and a spot of rust must mean you're a total pushover.
bell-cot 4y ago
From vague memory - didn't the USN have to more-or-less write off some major warships in the past decade or few, because the contractor who built them did so to "fresh water only" spec's - then weaseled, lawyered, and lobbied his way out of responsibility for the ships being utterly unfit for purpose?
- ethbr0 4y ago
  I don't think so? The only major warships the Navy operates are carriers (Nimitz, Ford), amphibious assault ships (Wasp, America), cruisers (Ticonderoga, the last of which was commissioned in 1994), and destroyers (Arleigh Burke, forthcoming DDGX). Ignoring the LCSs as a complete cluster#_$&. Maybe you're thinking of the Spearhead-class EPFs [0] and the issue with high sea states? But those were designed from the ground up to be cheap ($180M each) and "good enough" for sealift and harbor basing missions. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead-class_expeditionary_fast_transport https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead-class_expeditionar...
  - bell-cot 4y ago
    Probably the USS Independence - https://www.wired.com/2011/06/shipbuilder-blames-navy-as-brand-new-warship-disintegrates/ https://www.wired.com/2011/06/shipbuilder-blames-navy-as-bra... Not a capital ship, nor quickly written off - but 2,300 tons (light) is between the Allen M. Sumner- and Gearing-class (late WWII) destroyers. And "forgot that aluminum hull + steel propulsion hardware + salt water = galvanic corrosion" is a "never bothered to calculate GM" (the metacentric height) level of cluster#_$&'ing incompetence for any shipbuilder.
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      Thank god some common sense seems to have finally injected itself into the frigate endeavor via the Constellation pivot. Although we'll see how the engine development on those goes...
    - msrenee 4y ago
      Missing galvanic corrosion as a serious concern while making an aluminum and steel ship is pretty impressive. I guess they didn't actually miss it though. In your article, they say a cathodic protection system appeared on a list of things that were originally planned for the ship, but left off in the end. Which is incredible to me. I'm definitely in the learning phase with respect to how different metals and alloys interact, but I'm pretty sure I would have caught that myself. Galvanic corrosion is a pretty well-known issue when dealing with aluminum.
thenerdhead 4y ago
This is quite a cool analogy for either poor or strong leadership during a time of crisis and long deployments. I can't tell which is which yet. I'd probably go with the former based on my experiences and what I've seen firsthand in the surrounding world(healthcare, big tech, education, etc). On the poor leadership front, less people on the front line and they have been burnt out for longer than ever on overextended deployments. Enduring stress for too long simply breaks you down. The attention to detail eventually dissipates and people are just trying to keep their heads above water. On the strong leadership front, everything continued to function to expectations except appearance which may be argued to be the last remaining detail. Appearance however is everything in the military and goes back quite some time to tradition: > An old Navy tradition has it that the ship's cook shines the ship's bell and the ship's bugler shines the ship's whistle. This tradition may still be observed in some of the ships of the modern Navy. However, in normal practice, the ship's bell is maintained by a man of the ships' division charged with the upkeep of that part of the ship where the bell is located. This seems like a fun college-level question for a leadership/military/software class. What is your argument and why? https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/c/customs-traditions-navy.html https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading...
hgmaker 4y ago
- bluGill 4y ago
  This the military, they use ADA.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    ...which, jokes aside, is safer than Rust.
geogra4 4y ago
TecoAndJix 4y ago
Here is the thing with "busting rust": by the time you get to the end of the ship the other side has already started rusting again
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Reminds me of the golden gate bridge
imwillofficial 4y ago
"Ashes to ashes, dust unto dust, it may not run, but shine it must, it may not work, but it will not rust." An overheard Chief's response to the question, "why do we have to clean all the time?"
indymike 4y ago
Former Navy (nuclear propulsion) here. That by no means makes me an expert, by I will share a couple of thoughts: Ships rust. Officers don't chip paint and paint. Technical enlisted and NCOs don't chip paint and paint either. Junior, and especially unrated (not trained in a vocational area yet) enlisted do. This looks like a simple case of being undermanned, and/or having "too many chiefs and not enough braves". Reality is that it probably has to do with pay rates for Enlisted. Fedex pays $36-$42k/yer for package handlers. An E-1 makes $21k/year base. With all benefits, you might be at parity with Fedex, but you give up a lot of freedom. I'll commit a little naval heresy here but surface ships are probably nearing obsolescence if not already obsolete. They are slow, easy to find, and hypersonics, drones, cruise missiles, aircraft and submarines are just incredibly lethal, and perfect point defense doesn't exist. The sinking of the Moskva is really just a sign of the times. The carrier battle group may fare better because of the range of air cover and subsurface escorts, but we're in an era of weapons that can kill a carrier with a single hit.
- kingcharles 4y ago
  I totally agree. Surface ships are now just sitting ducks. Does the US have more carriers under construction? You need carriers to launch planes, but I guess the future could be quadcopter drones launched from subs?
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    The concept of "carriers" might change as they start to carry smaller unmanned planes - quadcopters tend to be at a disadvantage to fixed wing drones when longer ranges and longer loiter times are required. The solution to ship-killer weapons is decentralization, replacing a single juicy target with many dispersed targets. A Predator or Bayraktar sized drone designed for naval operations could be launched from a "dronecarrier" much, much smaller and cheaper than the current carriers.
    - zeusk 4y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUdVxJH6yI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUdVxJH6yI
master_crab 4y ago
Silly question: Does it matter that they have visible rust? If the performance is the same and it’s just a veneer with no effect on ability, who gives a damn? I had a CO who once told me: “I trust the guy who’s got mud on his boots vs the one whose shoes are always spit shined.”
- hammock 4y ago
  A little bit of rust grows and propagates in a cascading effect, as anyone who has had rust on a car can attest.
- kevinpet 4y ago
  You'll notice the reference to "deterrence" and "you have to look like you mean business". If your ships are rusty on the outside, do the weapons work on the inside?
bastardoperator 4y ago
Boats/Cutters in the USCG are painted pretty regularly for this exact reason. Shipmates, get your paint buckets and brushes out...
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Rust is a canary in a coal mine and a wilting rose at a vineyard. https://www.entrevinosypagos.com/en/plantamos-rosas-los-vinedos/ https://www.entrevinosypagos.com/en/plantamos-rosas-los-vine...
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  Thank you for this, have been wondering about that forever.
MR4D 4y ago
This isn’t surprising as the Navy loves the C. Sorry - I couldn’t resist.
legitster 4y ago
Even if we don't feel materially richer, we take for granted how steady quality-of-life improvements have continued to progress. People just don't want to do the kind of work we did 40 years ago. This is why "worker productivity" is one of the most important measures of innovation. If we've been sending out the same number of dudes to chip and paint for the last 100 years, that's a good sign that technology is lagging or has been underinvested in.
Maursault 4y ago
They'll build ships out of a kind of new super-plastic of tomorrow that is stronger and more durable than steel and, of course, more buoyant, made from ordinary seaweed applying a high tech military secret process and 100% recyclable.

117 points by tomohawk 4y ago

There should be alarm bells ringing that we're running the whole country poorly. These kinds of symptoms are pervasive. Everyone laughs at the poorly maintained Russian tanks without realizing we're heading that direction.

analog31 4y ago

Paint them brown in the first place. Or psychedelic. Disclosure: My first car was rust-colored, in more ways than one.

bannedbybros 4y ago

catern 4y ago

c7DJTLrn 4y ago

l-lousy 4y ago

kashunstva 4y ago

mysterydip 4y ago

> "An AKE like the Shepard should have 129 crewmembers in perfect conditions but they are now running at roughly 80% because of manning problems,” said another MSC officer. “About 20 in the deck department can be assigned to rust prevent duty. However, that crew is also assigned to Underway Replenishment duties. Three Unreps could easily eat away an entire day. When we return to port can we OSPHO? No. Can I send a crewmember over the side to chip? No. Navy rules prevent it." Sounds like a classic case of trying to do the same job with less people, and management only taking notice when the issue becomes public-facing.

Victerius 4y ago
Manning problems have existed for a decade, if not more. The Navy holds the sad record of being the worst managed branch of service. Steep budget cuts in the 1990s and again during sequestration have had severe effects that the Navy hasn't yet recovered from. But I don't know whether that's the cause of the problem. The Navy is an especially unique branch given that it's the only service that revolves around a relatively small number of very large, very expensive assets. The Army doesn't revolve around its tanks, and the Air Force, while it revolves around planes, there are a lot more planes in the Air Force than ships in the Navy. Congress is not without blame for the Navy's problems either, apart from the budget cuts. Congress has the last word on all programs and procurement. The Littoral Combat Ships should never have seen the light of day for instance, but Congress pushed the program through, and now the ships are useless (and still being built!) But there is hope on the horizon. The submarine construction programs (Virginia SSNs and Columbia SSBNs) are proceeding smoothly, as are the Flight III destroyers. DDG(X), the future replacement of the Arleigh-Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga-class cruisers, is in development, and the first Constellation-class frigates will soon be laid down.
- iforgetti 4y ago
  Where do you keep up with information like this? Do you have to work in the space or do you read certain periodicals or something else?
  - Victerius 4y ago
    news.usni.org is a prime source of information regarding Navy matters. Defensenews, Breakingdefense are also good all-purpose sources.
  - ms512 4y ago
    Jane's News [1] is a decent source for defense information. [1] https://www.janes.com/defence-news/ https://www.janes.com/defence-news/
- edmundsauto 4y ago

Victerius 4y ago

The Navy builds its ships with steel, and the grades of steel used in the construction can experience rust. Solutions: Switch to 100% stainless steel. Stainless steel is an alloy and contains a minimum of 11% chromium. This allows the formation of a protective film of chromium oxide which acts as a shield against rust. The protective film will re-form if damaged. Corrosion resistance can be further enhanced with the addition of nickel. Use a weathering steel, also known as “COR-TEN” steel which contains up to 21% of alloying elements such as chromium, copper, nickel, and phosphorous. The alloys form a protective rust patina which reduces the corrosion rate with time. COR-TEN steel tends to be cheaper than stainless steel. Galvanized steel. Galvanizing is a method of rust prevention. This is accomplished through hot-dip galvanizing or electroplating. The iron or steel object is coated in a thin layer of zinc. This stops oxygen and water from reaching the metal underneath but the zinc also acts as a sacrificial metal. Zinc is more reactive than iron, so it oxidizes in preference to the iron object. The zinc oxide layer prevents the formation of iron oxide, thus eliminating the possibility of rust forming.

GekkePrutser 4y ago
That's a good idea. Everyone knows chromium does not contain any Rust. Joking aside: There are many ways to prevent rust, though I think environmental concerns are also an issue. Galvanising might leak heavy metals into the sea? And chrome is also a pollutant. Iron is not.
incompatible 4y ago
Stainless steel is pretty expensive, but I suppose it would be no big deal for the US Navy. I thought they used sacrificial anodes to stop rust.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  I don't think those anodes are 100% effective though? I've seen many ships that have them and still have signs of rusting.
- wiredfool 4y ago
  I think that the sacrificial anodes work for places where it’s a hull in electrolyte, it wouldn’t necessarily work for salt spray in the superstructure.

newsclues 4y ago

I think this is a good lesson that can be applied to offices and data centres. If you run your teams and equipment beyond the threshold, your equipment and team will suffer and degrade your abilities. This is a failure of leadership, and it was avoidable!

epolanski 4y ago
I also like the part of looking sharp, this is also a non-zero factor in any field, including IT. Between two professionals, if one looks sharp, clean and fit, while the other one does not, it is hard not to conclude one has also more self discipline.
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  This bias is a consequence of what Kahneman called “What You See Is All There Is.” It’s bad logic and ascribing signal when it’s actually projections of the observer. That isn’t to say there is no effect - people might start to see themselves as more disciplined if they look sharp. “Look good, play good”, as my coach used to say.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I love that book, but I’m not sure Kahneman would agree that it applies here when we are evaluating not whether an individual looks sharp (imagine a salesperson on commission) but instead whether the individual+their work/domain/communication is sharp. I find that to be a very valuable signal, and I’m struggling to imagine how I could be disagree with on this.
    - B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago
      Well, it's fictional - the disheveled detective who always gets his culprit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo
    - edmundsauto 4y ago

red2awn 4y ago

donthellbanme 4y ago

" If crews can’t use new types of paint, If crews are restricted from using OSPHO (a mild acid used to clean up rust stains) in port or bosuns chairs over the side if we don’t have enough supply ships or crew on those supply ships if crews are committing suicide and arson because of conditions at shipyards tasked with painting old ships if the Navy doesn’t seek out the advice of commercial professionals at companies that have solved the problem like Shell if the Army and Air Force continue to get all the attention in Ukraine despite the heaviest fighting taking place in the littorals and ports – I could go on – how can individual sailors “stand up and be ready” to combat rust?" 1. I hope I'm reading this wrong. I can guarantee Sailors arn't committing suicide, or arson, because of a fugly rusty ship. 2. If their is any real problem it's the way our Navy treats Sailors, and lies to them upon signing that contract, and tries to renig on any lofty promises upon signing. I once heard the Navy will send you to school upon enlisting. Navy, "Become a Lawyer. We pay for it.". This commercial was around that movie with Tom Cruise playing the spiffy lawyer in his whites going up against Jack Nicholson. "You can't handle the truth!". Forget the name. I looked it up. The military at the time was picking up tuition for 8 enlisted men to go to law school. The guys are angry because once they enlisted, it wasen't the opportunity they thought it would be. Period.

CyanBird 4y ago
> 1. I hope I'm reading this wrong. I can guarantee Sailors arn't committing suicide, or arson, because of a fugly rusty ship. Sad to see that HN discussions stow so low so as to not discuss the things the piece actually mentions > The situation is not much better for American shipyards. On the morning of April 11, Captain Brent Gaut, the commander of the USS George Washington — an aircraft carrier undergoing major shipyard work at Newport News, Virginia — got on the ship’s intercom to announce that two sailors had died, and Gaut was alerting the crew that those deaths were the eighth and ninth suicides the ship had experienced in the nine months the ship has been stuck in shipyard. What was the Navy’s response? Gilday’s top enlisted adviser, Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy Russell Smith, told sailors they need to do a better job “managing expectations” then he chastised them by saying “What you’re not doing is sleeping in a foxhole like a Marine.” > This type of “toughen up, stand up” approach sounds eerily familiar to those of us who worked offshore in the years leading up to the Deepwater Horizon catastrophe. > In 2020, while undergoing shipyard repair in San Diego, conditions aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard were so bad a crew member set fire to the ship leading to the ship’s destruction. The responsible crew member was arrested but – despite investigators finding bad morale, delays, and poor training – the ship’s captain (and his chain of command) was left in charge and was allowed to celebrate the decommissioning of the ship he had lost. Please, next time just review the piece

executive 4y ago

livinginfear 4y ago

kristiandupont 4y ago
Sure, and prices used to be reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  Is there every a situation where an individual can complain about institutional regression at a large scale without facing this dismissal? I’m starting to associate this point with people flippantly dismissing a (potentially) reasonable point. Look, Im familiar with all the aphorisms about ‘kids these days’ and ‘soft men’ and the like. There’s a lot of wisdom in avoiding cynicism, but to avoid all negative observations of this sort is just as naive. Many great states and institutions fizzle out with little fanfare, under mediocre leadership and execution.
- drxzcl 4y ago
  Also, large armies have been vehicles of social change since napoleonic times at least. You bring young men from all over the country together, from different backgrounds and different social classes, and have them depend on each other for their very survival. The GP is either an outright troll, or has bought into a political propaganda version of what armed forces are like.

sevensor 4y ago

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normalized deviance. Many organizations don't suffer from these problems to nearly such an extent. I've worked in reasonably functional organizations, and ones that are disfunctional in different ways. Why does this malady strike the U.S. Navy and healthcare so severely? Am I viewing this from too great a distance? Are these actually separate forms of institutional dysfunction?

ethbr0 4y ago
> Why does this malady strike the U.S. Navy and healthcare so severely? Both industries substantially outsourced functionality in the 90s in an attempt to cut costs. Consequently, they are now less empowered (vs historical levels) to effect change in their own processes in a timely manner. Large organizations need to pay more attention to ossification of processes as a serious future risk, that needs to be balanced against immediate savings.
killjoywashere 4y ago
As a Navy physician who has dealt with COVID and fatigue, I think the chronic low pay contributes to a lack of people which leads to overwork, exhaustion, a sort of "this is my lot in life" acceptance of mild to moderate depression. And you get to the point you just look away for your own sanity. Healthcare workers get paid less as you get closer to the coasts. And military gets only very modest pay adjustments for housing costs. A colonel in Kansas may live like a king, but a captain in San Diego can't afford a house. Edit: I also agree with the posts about outsourcing leading to ossification and rigid stratification. You want rigid stratification? Try military medicine.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Great point! At the end of the day, we're talking about people. Highly trained people in Navy, medicine, and Navy medicine cases. And people have limits, because they need lives and aren't robots. Morale and aligning work to allow for happiness in life is a requirement for people bringing their best to work. If you ask people to toughen up and suffer through the suck to get the job done... there'd better be an eventual light at the end of that tunnel. Otherwise, it's just a death march. PS: Thank you for your service, and especially through COVID.

senectus1 4y ago

1970-01-01 4y ago

Rust-free? How over budget should we go trying to make an all-aluminum and carbon fiber carrier? Is fiberglass ok or are we planning on making submarines too?

tomohawk 4y ago
If you read the article, they talk about how commercial merchant marine vessels use modern coatings and materials, but that the US Navy has not approved their use after several years. Another failure. The modern materials are required since the EPA outlawed the coatings they used to use that actually worked.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  I thought the military had exemptions on EPA compliance for stuff. For example: US Army tanks use depleted uranium projectiles. Those are definitely not good for the environment.
  - sgent 4y ago
    The military must follow all EPA regulations as a general order, but someone at a high enough rank in the pentagon can make an exception for a specific rule/reg.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      I'm scratching my head as to why someone in the pentagon wouldn't do this for hull maintenance on seagoing vessels. It seems rather important.
      - msrenee 4y ago
        Probably because the chemicals they were using are pretty nasty and were used in high volumes. They were doing a lot of damage to the environment and there are alternatives. They just haven't been approved yet for use by the navy. It's not a good look to continue using damaging, outdated methods because your bureaucracy is so bad that can't utilize new technology.

americnt 4y ago

Was this upvoted by bots because of "Rust" in the title? Who cares if the US Navy's ships look like crap, this isn't a particularly intellectually stimulating topic, nor is it one that is of much interest outside of the US.

1970-01-01 4y ago
The Chief of Naval Operations seems to care quite a lot. He commands a fairly large amount of respect in the entire world.
- Issaclabs 4y ago
  If I were to ask 10,000 people selected randomly from outside the US. What percentage do you think would be able to name the naval commander of the US? I'd bet it's very close to zero.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    It’d be very close to zero in the US too.
  - 1970-01-01 4y ago
    13%
__m 4y ago
The military is is very much beloved by the US population and present at big sport events, in Hollywood, on campuses etc. I'm not surprised these topics are getting traction on HN.

Simplicitas 4y ago

How about reducing the Navy budget because current spending is beyond wasteful for equipment that's hardly used since wars are becoming so rare. For the minimum set of future ships, sure, lets look for technology that'll save tax-payers money.

ciarcode 4y ago
These days remember us that is better to have top class military. I’m sad about it, but this is the reality, I guess.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Tao332 4y ago
> wars are becoming so rare Arguably, in a nuclear era, this state of affairs is managed by maintaining the undeniable obviousness of mutually assured destruction. Securing peace by preparing for war.

boomboomsubban 4y ago

Wouldn't decommissioning solve these problems far better than building more new ships? Strange that is never a solution suggested by the navy.

enkid 4y ago
The Navy is trying to decomission ships faster than normal right now. https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2022/04/04/us-navy-reveals-ships-facing-potential-decommissioning-next-year/
jeffrallen 4y ago
The second a steel ship leaves the shipyard it is rusting. This is not about old rusty ships, it's about the normal routine maintenance that all steel ships require, and the Navy's seeming inability to do it.
eunos 4y ago
Politically bad move since Chinese is rapidly increasing their fleet size. Sure there are many are other components of power like quality, tradition, supply chain and so on. But I'm emphasizing on Politic here.
- bannedbybros 4y ago

Jowsey 4y ago

Rust-free? That doesn't sound very safe

jeffrallen 4y ago
But at least their compile times would go down.

jwmhjwmh 4y ago

throwaway290 4y ago

What happened to appearing weak when you're strong, and strong when you're weak? (Unless this is a submarine targeting enemy researchers?) Making warships look aesthetically pleasing strikes me as a little silly. That said, safety and mental health sounds like vital issues to address.

TecoAndJix 4y ago
A cool example of power projection: The Great White Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_White_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_White_Fleet
Tao332 4y ago
I'm not in a navy and I think the rusty ships look more intimidating. Though I guess I could be abus-- I mean, disciplined into thinking unmade beds, unshined shoes, and a spot of rust must mean you're a total pushover.

bell-cot 4y ago

From vague memory - didn't the USN have to more-or-less write off some major warships in the past decade or few, because the contractor who built them did so to "fresh water only" spec's - then weaseled, lawyered, and lobbied his way out of responsibility for the ships being utterly unfit for purpose?

ethbr0 4y ago
I don't think so? The only major warships the Navy operates are carriers (Nimitz, Ford), amphibious assault ships (Wasp, America), cruisers (Ticonderoga, the last of which was commissioned in 1994), and destroyers (Arleigh Burke, forthcoming DDGX). Ignoring the LCSs as a complete cluster#_$&. Maybe you're thinking of the Spearhead-class EPFs [0] and the issue with high sea states? But those were designed from the ground up to be cheap ($180M each) and "good enough" for sealift and harbor basing missions. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead-class_expeditionary_fast_transport https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead-class_expeditionar...
- bell-cot 4y ago
  Probably the USS Independence - https://www.wired.com/2011/06/shipbuilder-blames-navy-as-brand-new-warship-disintegrates/ https://www.wired.com/2011/06/shipbuilder-blames-navy-as-bra... Not a capital ship, nor quickly written off - but 2,300 tons (light) is between the Allen M. Sumner- and Gearing-class (late WWII) destroyers. And "forgot that aluminum hull + steel propulsion hardware + salt water = galvanic corrosion" is a "never bothered to calculate GM" (the metacentric height) level of cluster#_$&'ing incompetence for any shipbuilder.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Thank god some common sense seems to have finally injected itself into the frigate endeavor via the Constellation pivot. Although we'll see how the engine development on those goes...
  - msrenee 4y ago
    Missing galvanic corrosion as a serious concern while making an aluminum and steel ship is pretty impressive. I guess they didn't actually miss it though. In your article, they say a cathodic protection system appeared on a list of things that were originally planned for the ship, but left off in the end. Which is incredible to me. I'm definitely in the learning phase with respect to how different metals and alloys interact, but I'm pretty sure I would have caught that myself. Galvanic corrosion is a pretty well-known issue when dealing with aluminum.

thenerdhead 4y ago

This is quite a cool analogy for either poor or strong leadership during a time of crisis and long deployments. I can't tell which is which yet. I'd probably go with the former based on my experiences and what I've seen firsthand in the surrounding world(healthcare, big tech, education, etc). On the poor leadership front, less people on the front line and they have been burnt out for longer than ever on overextended deployments. Enduring stress for too long simply breaks you down. The attention to detail eventually dissipates and people are just trying to keep their heads above water. On the strong leadership front, everything continued to function to expectations except appearance which may be argued to be the last remaining detail. Appearance however is everything in the military and goes back quite some time to tradition: > An old Navy tradition has it that the ship's cook shines the ship's bell and the ship's bugler shines the ship's whistle. This tradition may still be observed in some of the ships of the modern Navy. However, in normal practice, the ship's bell is maintained by a man of the ships' division charged with the upkeep of that part of the ship where the bell is located. This seems like a fun college-level question for a leadership/military/software class. What is your argument and why? https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/c/customs-traditions-navy.html https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading...

hgmaker 4y ago

bluGill 4y ago
This the military, they use ADA.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  ...which, jokes aside, is safer than Rust.

geogra4 4y ago

TecoAndJix 4y ago

Here is the thing with "busting rust": by the time you get to the end of the ship the other side has already started rusting again

missedthecue 4y ago
Reminds me of the golden gate bridge

imwillofficial 4y ago

"Ashes to ashes, dust unto dust, it may not run, but shine it must, it may not work, but it will not rust." An overheard Chief's response to the question, "why do we have to clean all the time?"

indymike 4y ago

Former Navy (nuclear propulsion) here. That by no means makes me an expert, by I will share a couple of thoughts: Ships rust. Officers don't chip paint and paint. Technical enlisted and NCOs don't chip paint and paint either. Junior, and especially unrated (not trained in a vocational area yet) enlisted do. This looks like a simple case of being undermanned, and/or having "too many chiefs and not enough braves". Reality is that it probably has to do with pay rates for Enlisted. Fedex pays $36-$42k/yer for package handlers. An E-1 makes $21k/year base. With all benefits, you might be at parity with Fedex, but you give up a lot of freedom. I'll commit a little naval heresy here but surface ships are probably nearing obsolescence if not already obsolete. They are slow, easy to find, and hypersonics, drones, cruise missiles, aircraft and submarines are just incredibly lethal, and perfect point defense doesn't exist. The sinking of the Moskva is really just a sign of the times. The carrier battle group may fare better because of the range of air cover and subsurface escorts, but we're in an era of weapons that can kill a carrier with a single hit.

kingcharles 4y ago
I totally agree. Surface ships are now just sitting ducks. Does the US have more carriers under construction? You need carriers to launch planes, but I guess the future could be quadcopter drones launched from subs?
- PeterisP 4y ago
  The concept of "carriers" might change as they start to carry smaller unmanned planes - quadcopters tend to be at a disadvantage to fixed wing drones when longer ranges and longer loiter times are required. The solution to ship-killer weapons is decentralization, replacing a single juicy target with many dispersed targets. A Predator or Bayraktar sized drone designed for naval operations could be launched from a "dronecarrier" much, much smaller and cheaper than the current carriers.
  - zeusk 4y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUdVxJH6yI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUdVxJH6yI

master_crab 4y ago

Silly question: Does it matter that they have visible rust? If the performance is the same and it’s just a veneer with no effect on ability, who gives a damn? I had a CO who once told me: “I trust the guy who’s got mud on his boots vs the one whose shoes are always spit shined.”

hammock 4y ago
A little bit of rust grows and propagates in a cascading effect, as anyone who has had rust on a car can attest.
kevinpet 4y ago
You'll notice the reference to "deterrence" and "you have to look like you mean business". If your ships are rusty on the outside, do the weapons work on the inside?

bastardoperator 4y ago

Boats/Cutters in the USCG are painted pretty regularly for this exact reason. Shipmates, get your paint buckets and brushes out...

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Rust is a canary in a coal mine and a wilting rose at a vineyard. https://www.entrevinosypagos.com/en/plantamos-rosas-los-vinedos/ https://www.entrevinosypagos.com/en/plantamos-rosas-los-vine...

jeffrallen 4y ago
Thank you for this, have been wondering about that forever.

MR4D 4y ago

This isn’t surprising as the Navy loves the C. Sorry - I couldn’t resist.

legitster 4y ago

Even if we don't feel materially richer, we take for granted how steady quality-of-life improvements have continued to progress. People just don't want to do the kind of work we did 40 years ago. This is why "worker productivity" is one of the most important measures of innovation. If we've been sending out the same number of dudes to chip and paint for the last 100 years, that's a good sign that technology is lagging or has been underinvested in.

Maursault 4y ago

They'll build ships out of a kind of new super-plastic of tomorrow that is stronger and more durable than steel and, of course, more buoyant, made from ordinary seaweed applying a high tech military secret process and 100% recyclable.