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Georgia to mandate personal finance education
- mogadsheu 5y agoI don’t think most people would consider adding a personal finance course to a public school curriculum a mandate. Those young adults will still have every right to be financially irresponsible.
- kube-system 5y agoThe part that makes it a mandate is the law that requires it.
- mbg721 5y agoI thought the part that made it a "mandate" was that it was outside the legislative branch of government.
- jldugger 5y agoPerhaps you are thinking of the phrase "unfunded mandate" which basically when the legislation tells the administration to do something, but fails to allocate funds to do it. Still a law though. And colloquially, "mandate" often means 'the authority to enact a policy, due to an election.'
- FredPret 5y agoI found the YNAB videos and classes to be absolutely invaluable. Although actually I can attach an exact dollar value to them, lol. Wish I learnt that at or before 18 instead.
- Overtonwindow 5y agoI really wish we had this when I was in school.
- reaperducer 5y agoWe used to when I was in school. It was called "Home Economics," and was a required course for every student. I very often think the removal of home economics, geography, civics, philosophy, and other basic classes is what has caused so many people to know so little about how the world around them works. I'm not old enough to have lived in a time when gun safety was taught in schools, but I also wonder if the removal of that portion of the curriculum has contributed to gun violence. Because now, to many people a gun is no longer a tool, but an exotic fetish item to be used for power, not for a purpose.
- nathanaldensr 5y agoWe should add ethics and philosophy to that. It's far past time for grade school to stop being about "teach the sheep the bare minimum to turn them into dumb, compliant factory workers."
- rayiner 5y agoWhose ethics and whose philosophy? Can we teach the Bible? The Quran? Confucius?
- nathanaldensr 5y agoThat's a good question. Perhaps a smattering of some kind? I think even if it's not a specific set of ethics, even merely teaching that the concept exists is a start.
- bigDinosaur 5y agoCertainly all of those three are terrible choices if your goal is to produce a less compliant populace that is healthily critical of authority.
- rayiner 5y agoWhy would a less compliant population be healthy? It seems like the opposite is true.
- bigDinosaur 5y agoTo clarify: that was an adverb to 'critical of authority'. In the sense I meant it, it means a population that is prepared to challenge authority but does so based on reason and good information.
- oneoff786 5y agoCovering a variety of ethical frameworks is generally a good strategy to teach ethics
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- notacoward 5y agoWorth noting: > Georgia is the 13th state to mandate personal finance education for its students As long as they're not encouraging students to "invest" in lottery tickets, meme stocks, and crypto, I think this is a good move.
- 29athrowaway 5y agoWhat is wrong with crypto.
- SamReidHughes 5y agoIt's not an investment. 1 BTC is always going to be worth 1 BTC.
- oneoff786 5y agoI’ll take that bet
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- notacoward 5y agoEven if entire books couldn't be written in answer to that question, that kind of market speculation has no place in a personal finance class. Such a class should teach students the basics they need to make and keep a budget, avoid unnecessary debt, save for retirement, maybe even buy a house, etc. Any kind of market speculation should be left until they thoroughly grasp those basics.
- toxicFork 5y agoThe main thing is that people think that "buying some amount of crypto currency is an investment". It may be, but way too volatile, much more than people's actual desired risk profiles. So they have unrealistic expectations where a few people end up winning and way too many end up holding the empty bag. Statistically, that's not an investment, that's a scheme.
- prepend 5y agoI think financial literacy is a good idea for high school students but an entire semester seems like overkill. Everything one needs to know could probably be a one week course or two weeks tops. The downside is that high school already is very little room for electives so now that’s a semester less of whatever students would like.
- dhosek 5y agoI think you underestimate the amount of time that it takes to convey information in a high school classroom. For example, four years of language instruction at the high school level, assuming that the student manages to pass the AP exam at the end of it, gives that student the equivalent of two semesters of language instruction at the college level. A one-year math class in high school (with roughly 180 classroom days) is taught in colleges in a single semester (with 45 classroom days). Part of this is that there will be a lot of hands-on in-class experience as part of the instruction. Illinois requires 9 weeks of consumer education which is usually made part of another class although the local high school's requirement is either a semester-long class or AP Economics.
- urthor 5y agoKeep in mind also that that's because in high school the number of hours per week are far more limited. High school has a part of a highly varied curriculum. For example, students almost never spend more than 25% of their time on just math. Whilst in university, a single paper involves spending 25% of your time on a single sub topic like geometry.
- dhosek 5y ago>Keep in mind also that that's because in high school the number of hours per week are far more limited. I don’t understand what you’re claiming here. At least in terms of classroom contact time, the number of hours is much higher in high school (typically five 50 minute periods per week vs. three 50 minute periods per week in college) and the school year is longer (20–21 weeks per semester vs 15 in college).
- closeparen 5y agoIn the same way that health class teaches abstinence but all the cool kids know to party, I predict that personal finance class will teach savings and index funds while all the cool kids know to bet it all on GME.
- 29athrowaway 5y agohttps://youtu.be/d80ahvRSV8E https://youtu.be/d80ahvRSV8E
- SamReidHughes 5y agoThe class will need to teach kids to maximize the geometric mean of returns, not arithmetic mean, so they know how to properly size their GME calls.
- julianlam 5y agoA practice account for the purpose of teaching youngsters about the stock market would be great, actually. You'd either develop a healthy respect for the volatility of equities, or alternatively the irrationality of the whole system. Would love to see an entire student body lose their collective imaginary savings betting on GME
- lostcolony 5y agoI grew up in Georgia, and in one class in middle school we played "the stock market game". I didn't care about it. So my 'group', me and two girls who spoke little English, just put our pretend funds in some diversified blue chips, and then every time the class took time to rebalance their funds, I just read, leaving them where they were because I didn't care. My group got first in the school and got pizza with the ones who got second and third.
- julianlam 5y agoI mean, that sounds like a perfectly sound strategy. It's the whole concept behind the couch potato investment strategy.
- WalterBright 5y agoSome things they ought to cover: 1. what colleges cost, what salaries various majors get, and how that works with tuition loans 2. what the terms profit, loss, revenue, equity, assets and liability mean. What a balance sheet is, what a profit & loss statement is 3. how markets work 4. how compound interest works A bonus would be how fractional reserve banks work
- imgabe 5y agoI would add: Tax treatment of different forms of income What are capital gains? What does it mean for them to be realized vs unrealized?
- xsmasher 5y agoTax brackets / progressive taxation in general. The "don't take a raise, you'll actually make less" factoid is way too common.
- alisonkisk 5y agoThis is way beyond what a high schooler needs for getting started in life. This is personal finance, for all, not professional accounting for optimizing cash flows. it's far moren important to learn the basics of not getting robbed by predatory businesses, so that they can have a chance at saving some money to turn into capital gains later.
- agubelu 5y agoBecause I guess outlawing predatory business practices is out of the question
- WalterBright 5y agoI remember back in 2008 people were complaining that they didn't know they had to pay back those mortgages. They also complained they didn't know what their mortgage contract said, because they didn't read it. Every mortgage contract I've bought included a separate page that said simply "I have read and understand this contract" that had to be signed. At what point does some personal responsibility come into play?
- forgotmypw17 5y agoI think personal finance is itself a broken system, and education about it is like putting up signs about missing steps on a stairway. You can make a super-visible sign or even post an attendant to alert people, but really, those are temporary measures, and the missing step itself should be fixed. We have the means today to no longer require people to manage their bank accounts and investments and tax deductions. It's a huge waste of effort and time and life's energy. Personally, I have already refused most of it. I stopped working for money, instead focusing on relationships, volunteering, and personal projects. I've stopped filing my tax returns, because I no longer have to. I no longer have a bank account, investments, etc. And I'm quite happy with it. Edit: Yes, I am extremely privileged to be able to develop FOSS and have enough support and education and all the other privileges to pull it off. I do not deny this. It still took a lot of courage and discomfort and accepting my own disabilities to get where I am here. And it took rejecting something that everyone had told me was a unalterable given.
- dchuk 5y agoCurious, how do you practically operate in life? Where do you live? How do you pay for food and living accommodations?
- forgotmypw17 5y agoI operate by beginning my day with prayer and meditation. I then follow my calendar appointments, mostly volunteering and classes, and whenever I'm not doing that, I work on my software project. I live in any spaces which will have me. My needs are very minimal, and through prayer and faith, I am provided for. I eat whatever food is made available to me by the Universe, and when it is not, I am fasting. If you want to know more details, I recently posted a comment with an overview: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31077742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31077742
- spicymaki 5y agoVery interesting. Thanks for posting that. Good luck on your journey.
- wanderingmind 5y agoAs a side, can someone recommend any good online content to teach financial literacy for kids?
- dehrmann 5y agoI can't speak to it, but they were promoting this on public radio: https://www.marketplace.org/2022/04/04/introducing-million-bazillion-academy/ https://www.marketplace.org/2022/04/04/introducing-million-b...
- wanderingmind 5y agoThanks looks interesting. Will check it out
- _delirium 5y agoHere are a few sample curricula used for these kinds of classes in other states, to give an idea of what's commonly taught: TX: https://www.dallasfed.org/educate/pfl.aspx https://www.dallasfed.org/educate/pfl.aspx MS (PDF): https://www.stlouisfed.org/-/media/project/frbstl/stlouisfed/education/curriculum/pdf/mississippi_personal_finance_curriculum.pdf https://www.stlouisfed.org/-/media/project/frbstl/stlouisfed... VA (PDF): https://p19cdn4static.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_78010/File/Academic%20Programs/CTE/HS/PersonalFinanceBE6121.pdf https://p19cdn4static.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Serv...
- pgcj_poster 5y agoFollowing your links, I'm seeing topics like "differentiate between needs and wants" and "what are taxes for." Perhaps these classes are helpful to those with a room-temperature IQ, but I think that for college-bound students, they're a waste of time. My High School took the approach of automatically signing everyone up for a personal finance class, but letting anyone take something else if they talked to their counselor. That way students who cared about learning actual academic subjects could do so, but those who were most likely to need a class in personal finance were still sorted into it by default.
- kube-system 5y agoLists of competencies sometimes sound silly if you read them like a table of contents. But they’re not chapter titles or a lesson plan, they’re just lists of what shouldn’t be overlooked. Some of them might just be part of a broader discussion about something else. Another way to look at it is: if someone can’t do those things, they are not competent in the subject matter.
- elefanten 5y agoI think you answered your own question with your anecdote. PF class is indeed targeted.
- iambateman 5y agoTeaching personal finance is challenging for at least two reasons - (1) budgets take focus over time and (2) the $$ experience of a high schooler is wildly disconnected from the reality of adulthood. I’m working on a site called MoneyHabitsHQ.com. I’m super excited to build a system which allows kids to use the same budgeting tools their parents use, and develop more autonomy over time. The goal is to equip parents/guardians to walk with the kids over several years as they develop habits around money.
- karmasimida 5y agoand do not take student loans for low ROI majors!
- imwillofficial 5y agoThis is a good move, long overdue.
- mygo 5y agoThey should cover everything one needs to know to be a fully independent adult, such as: - personal and family finance - woodworking (cabinetry, furniture, carpentry) - nutrition and food preparation For the course title, they should name it “personal economics”, or perhaps “home economics”
- dghughes 5y agoI've found just figuring out a method for tracking your budget can be quite difficult. Whether on actual paper or computer spreadsheet too much detail can make tracking your money become tedious very fast. When it becomes a chore most often that means people will procrastinate or give up documenting their spending.
- 1270018080 5y ago> In the last 12 months, Florida, Nebraska, Ohio and Rhode Island have passed similar laws and are in the process of implementing them for all students. That's good. Let's get all 50.
- duxup 5y agoIs education likely to help or are people just making bad choices because in the short term it is desirable? I make bad choices sometimes, it’s not because I don’t know better…
- Scalene2 5y agoSo, I'm not going to argue against more practical education in schools. But I think whenever personal finance education is brought up, the following needs to be understood: You can't budget your way out of poverty if you have poverty wages.
- User23 5y ago> You can't budget your way out of poverty if you have poverty wages. Generally speaking, one should invest in the asset that produces the most cash flow. For most persons, including those in poverty, one’s own labor is that asset. Based on my experience poverty wages are sufficient to make that investment and get an exponential return, but that was a while ago so perhaps the community colleges or equivalent are no longer sufficient to enter a tech career?
- strix_varius 5y agoA friend of mine is a young high-school history teacher who has lamented having to teach this class. Not because he feels it lacks value, but because he has little-to-no personal experience with some of the concepts he's teaching: - broad investment options (stocks, bonds, indexes, etc) - real estate - managing risk / diversification
- asimpleusecase 5y agoMany years ago had a civics teacher who got a free instructional package from the IRS on how to fill out taxes. It was one of the most useful things we were taught that year. Also reminds me of practical skills I learned in a shop class. Basic electrical, plumbing, carpentry, masonry, welding, power tool use, and small engine repair. All things that helped me live independently as an adult.
- astura 5y ago>who got a free instructional package from the IRS on how to fill out taxes The IRS used to mail this to every household who sent them a paper form last year.
- dehrmann 5y agoOn one hand, I'm in favor of this. On the other, I suspect it'll be as effective as civics and government classes.
- freddie_mercury 5y agoApparently HN readers are unaware that personal finance courses like this are useless. There has been decades of research showing unequivocally that they don't work. Virtually no current financial education researcher thinks they accomplish anything. The problem is they, like all education, doesn't stick unless it is immediately and repeatedly put into practice. High schoolers are simply the wrong audience for this. This is a feel good measure, nothing more. Current state of the art favors just in time education on specific topics as they arise.
- blisterpeanuts 5y agoCan you cite some sources behind the assertion that personal finance courses are useless for high school students? It’s difficult to imagine that 12th graders, who are functional adults and often already employed, would not benefit from an understanding of debt, compound interest, mortgages, IRA’s and other tax-deferred savings plans, and stock markets.
- Auracle 5y agoThey aren’t going to care about most of the things on that list because they won’t be getting a mortgage or investing for a while. It’ll go in one ear and right out the other. Debt and compound interest can be taught in one class period.
- freddie_mercury 5y ago"In a recent meta-analysis of over 200 prior studies on financial literacy programs, conducted by Daniel Fernandes, John Lynch, and Richard Netemeyer, and entitled “Financial Literacy, Financial Education, and Downstream Financial Behaviors”, the researchers found that interventions to improve financial literacy explain a statistically significant but practically irrelevant 0.1% of subsequent financial behaviors." The problem is knowledge decay. If you don't use it immediately you forget it. Just like every other academic subject. 12th graders also don't remember their geometry or algebra or history classes.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y agoWill it cover questions like: I just did 8 hours of work for ABC Corp., and created $X of value for them, yet somehow I will only be paid $X/8 for my efforts. I think it's fair to say "unlikely" at best.
- causality0 5y agoThis is good. Our personal finance lessons came in fifth grade when not one single student could make use of them or retain them long enough to use.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoPersonal finance and knowing your rights as an employee absolutely should be taught. Along with the history of unions, the guilded age, and era of railroad and banking tycoons.
- keiferski 5y agoOne of the best "personal finance for kids" books I've come across is The Accounting Game: Basic Accounting Fresh from the Lemonade Stand. It teaches basic concepts like a balance sheet, income statements, profit, and more. I really recommend it, even for adults that want a more fun approach to a notoriously boring topic. I hope that the new Georgian curriculum takes this approach and not a dry textbook one.
- idoubtit 5y ago[meta] Hacker News has become a kind of Reddit "General news and curiosities for techies", far from its initial goal: > Hacker News Guidelines > What to Submit > On-Topic: [...] If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. > Off-Topic: [...] If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. Well, this post is off-topic, but at least it's in the "News" category. Other front page posts look more like exotic curiosities (e.g. "The puffer fish helmets of Kiribati", or "Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios").
- geysersam 5y agoCan you recommend other communities more aligned with the original HN guidelines?
- londons_explore 5y agoCountry or state? It really would be best if we didn't assume US state...
- Proven 5y ago
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- morninglight 5y agoGeorgia does not have adequate teaching staff to teach personal finance. Instead they will invite outside experts from the business community to indoctrinate the kids. For example: H&R Block, Capital One, Fidelity, Coldwell Banker, RE/MAX, Century 21, BlackRock, Charles Schwab, J.P. Morgan