6 ms·

I have experienced this several times and almost never have a headache. I definitely can't read what's beyond/obscured by the scotoma. The first time it happene

I have experienced this several times and almost never have a headache. I definitely can't read what's beyond/obscured by the scotoma. The first time it happened was during a test in high school and the splotch grew until I was forced to read the questions in my peripheral. I have an anecdote that corroborates your observation that cognitive experiences are more complicated then assumed: I was once very, very sleep deprived. I became aware that my body was reacting to something, as if there was a jump scare in a movie, I unconsciously flinched and pulled away from something without knowing why, and then a perceptual moment later, I heard a loud noise caused by something falling to the floor.

mikelevins 4y ago
One of the other weird things I referred to is best described as discovering that I could be awake and asleep at the same time. I think it might be another case of our naive ideas about cognitive processes being a little oversimplified. It sounds like nonsense, of course, but that's because we naively assume that sleep and wakefulness are opposites--that they are mutually exclusive. What if we're wrong about that? What if instead each of them is a set of processes that normally work together, but that can be disrupted, and what if disrupting them makes the boundary between them more porous? I have CFS, which boils down to having something screwed up in my recovery from fatigue. Nowadays it's not a big deal, as long as I follow some rules, but it took the better part of a decade to reach that point. For several years I used prescription modafinil and armodafinil to control when I was awake (because otherwise I slept eighteen to twenty hours a day). With the modafinil I managed to reach a stable state where I could usually be awake for a fairly normal part of the day, but a couple of times a month I'd get so tired that I'd fall asleep even with a full dose of the stimulant in me. Those naps were weird, though, in that I remained conscious through them. I mean I'd lie down, relax like normal falling asleep, and start breathing in that distinctive arrythmic way that tells you someone's asleep. I would just be awake the whole time, watching myself sleep. I experimented with trying to move when I was "asleep". Sometimes I could; sometimes I couldn't. You can imagine that I really was asleep, and maybe the stimulant just caused me to dream that I was awake, watching myself sleep. The main problem I have with that explanation is that I have never in any other circumstance experienced dreams that were so much the same over and over, and without the usual fantastic elements. Of course, you could argue that was the modafinil affecting my dreams, and that could be true. But my hypothesis is similar to the migraine and scotoma blindsight thing: what if awake and asleep are not opposites, after all? What if they aren't actually mutually exclusive? What if, instead, they're just two complexes of cognitive and physiological states that don't normally happen at the same time because they interfere with each other? It's not useful for them to happen together, so our bodies and brains don't normally do that. But mix a strong CNS stimulant with extreme fatigue, and things get messed up. If it was actually happening, and not some weird drug-induced dream or hallucination, then it strikes me as another case where our cognitive processes are a little more complicated and messy than we normally assume.
- derangedHorse 4y ago
  You should try and play an audiobook before you lay down to rest and see if you can hear and remember what's being played. Echoing another comment describing this as similar to sleep paralysis, playing things while I'm "asleep" and recalling them once awake has led to successful results
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Sounds like multiple PhD theses/journal articles could be mined from CFS + modafinil.
  - mikelevins 4y ago
    I know what you mean, but I don't know how the heck you could arrange for just the right combination of large doses of modafinil and profound exhaustion at just the right times. To give you some idea of how profound my fatigue was, let's start with the fact that I've been extremely sensitive to stimulants of any kind since I can remember. A can of coke past 8PM would keep me awake half the night. It's a trait that I apparently inherited from my mother and passed on to my daughter. After I developed CFS, I could take a full dose of an amphetamine and sleep like a baby. I know because amphetamines were one of the alternatives my physician tried for controlling my sleepiness and attention problems. Modafinil and armodafinil are the drugs that worked for me. By the way, please don't anyone assume that they'll do the same thing for you that they did for me. Everybody's different. Talk to your doctor, not some random internet storyteller.
    - sjg007 4y ago
      Is it the caffeine or the sugar when you drink the can of coke or both? I've found sugar to be way worse for my insomnia than anything else. Caffeine does play a role but excess sugar really revs me up ironically.
      - mikelevins 4y ago
        It was definitely the caffeine. For example, a can of Diet Coke was just as bad. I also know from experience with other stimulants that I was just extremely sensitive to stimulants in general (and so is my mother, and so is my daughter). Not anymore, though; not since I developed CFS.
mikelevins 4y ago
Do me a favor some time and try to read through the scotoma, if you remember to. I think that I would have just assumed I couldn't do it if I hadn't been reading something really interesting when the scotoma started. It's only because it came on while I was already reading that I discovered that I was able to continue. If you remember to try it, the results will be interesting no matter which way they turn out.
- mongol 4y ago
  Yes this seems very worthwhile to try. It seems like a research topic to me.
- vnorilo 4y ago
  I have migraine once or twice a year, and the most recent attack indeed interrupted my reading, quite simply did not see the letters through the zigzag. As it gradually covered the focal point of my vision I was trying to "squint" mentally but eventually gave up. There was no followup headache, just a slight vertigo.
  - mikelevins 4y ago
    Interesting data point. I just have the one experience to report, so far, but I fully intend to test it out again the next time I have an episode.
- scruple 4y ago
  Not the GP, but I've tried to read through mine before but I've also focused my vision on the edges where the scotoma hasn't reached. I'll try to go "through" it next time...

mikelevins 4y ago

One of the other weird things I referred to is best described as discovering that I could be awake and asleep at the same time. I think it might be another case of our naive ideas about cognitive processes being a little oversimplified. It sounds like nonsense, of course, but that's because we naively assume that sleep and wakefulness are opposites--that they are mutually exclusive. What if we're wrong about that? What if instead each of them is a set of processes that normally work together, but that can be disrupted, and what if disrupting them makes the boundary between them more porous? I have CFS, which boils down to having something screwed up in my recovery from fatigue. Nowadays it's not a big deal, as long as I follow some rules, but it took the better part of a decade to reach that point. For several years I used prescription modafinil and armodafinil to control when I was awake (because otherwise I slept eighteen to twenty hours a day). With the modafinil I managed to reach a stable state where I could usually be awake for a fairly normal part of the day, but a couple of times a month I'd get so tired that I'd fall asleep even with a full dose of the stimulant in me. Those naps were weird, though, in that I remained conscious through them. I mean I'd lie down, relax like normal falling asleep, and start breathing in that distinctive arrythmic way that tells you someone's asleep. I would just be awake the whole time, watching myself sleep. I experimented with trying to move when I was "asleep". Sometimes I could; sometimes I couldn't. You can imagine that I really was asleep, and maybe the stimulant just caused me to dream that I was awake, watching myself sleep. The main problem I have with that explanation is that I have never in any other circumstance experienced dreams that were so much the same over and over, and without the usual fantastic elements. Of course, you could argue that was the modafinil affecting my dreams, and that could be true. But my hypothesis is similar to the migraine and scotoma blindsight thing: what if awake and asleep are not opposites, after all? What if they aren't actually mutually exclusive? What if, instead, they're just two complexes of cognitive and physiological states that don't normally happen at the same time because they interfere with each other? It's not useful for them to happen together, so our bodies and brains don't normally do that. But mix a strong CNS stimulant with extreme fatigue, and things get messed up. If it was actually happening, and not some weird drug-induced dream or hallucination, then it strikes me as another case where our cognitive processes are a little more complicated and messy than we normally assume.

derangedHorse 4y ago
You should try and play an audiobook before you lay down to rest and see if you can hear and remember what's being played. Echoing another comment describing this as similar to sleep paralysis, playing things while I'm "asleep" and recalling them once awake has led to successful results
barry-cotter 4y ago
Sounds like multiple PhD theses/journal articles could be mined from CFS + modafinil.
- mikelevins 4y ago
  I know what you mean, but I don't know how the heck you could arrange for just the right combination of large doses of modafinil and profound exhaustion at just the right times. To give you some idea of how profound my fatigue was, let's start with the fact that I've been extremely sensitive to stimulants of any kind since I can remember. A can of coke past 8PM would keep me awake half the night. It's a trait that I apparently inherited from my mother and passed on to my daughter. After I developed CFS, I could take a full dose of an amphetamine and sleep like a baby. I know because amphetamines were one of the alternatives my physician tried for controlling my sleepiness and attention problems. Modafinil and armodafinil are the drugs that worked for me. By the way, please don't anyone assume that they'll do the same thing for you that they did for me. Everybody's different. Talk to your doctor, not some random internet storyteller.
  - sjg007 4y ago
    Is it the caffeine or the sugar when you drink the can of coke or both? I've found sugar to be way worse for my insomnia than anything else. Caffeine does play a role but excess sugar really revs me up ironically.
    - mikelevins 4y ago
      It was definitely the caffeine. For example, a can of Diet Coke was just as bad. I also know from experience with other stimulants that I was just extremely sensitive to stimulants in general (and so is my mother, and so is my daughter). Not anymore, though; not since I developed CFS.

mikelevins 4y ago

Do me a favor some time and try to read through the scotoma, if you remember to. I think that I would have just assumed I couldn't do it if I hadn't been reading something really interesting when the scotoma started. It's only because it came on while I was already reading that I discovered that I was able to continue. If you remember to try it, the results will be interesting no matter which way they turn out.

mongol 4y ago
Yes this seems very worthwhile to try. It seems like a research topic to me.
vnorilo 4y ago
I have migraine once or twice a year, and the most recent attack indeed interrupted my reading, quite simply did not see the letters through the zigzag. As it gradually covered the focal point of my vision I was trying to "squint" mentally but eventually gave up. There was no followup headache, just a slight vertigo.
- mikelevins 4y ago
  Interesting data point. I just have the one experience to report, so far, but I fully intend to test it out again the next time I have an episode.
scruple 4y ago
Not the GP, but I've tried to read through mine before but I've also focused my vision on the edges where the scotoma hasn't reached. I'll try to go "through" it next time...