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> or just got cold feet on your $30k purchase. You are typically not entitled to a refund in this situation. Many companies will allow it under a goodwill ret

> or just got cold feet on your $30k purchase. You are typically not entitled to a refund in this situation. Many companies will allow it under a goodwill return policy, but they are not legally obligated in most situations.

jdsully 4y ago
There is an implied warranty of merchantability. If a EULA wasn’t disclosed until post purchase and is required for operation then the product isn’t operable and they would have to return it or find a way to make it operable. Your average store clerk will roll their eyes if you discuss this with them - you’d have to sue. For $30k it might be worth it, but most purchases it is not.
- JohnHaugeland 4y ago
  It's almost certain that the EULA is on the website
  - jhugo 4y ago
    If I walk into a store and buy something and they never mention the surprise extra contractual terms I need to go looking for on the website, then those surprise extra contractual terms aren't part of the sales contract. He's entitled to a refund if the EULA terms were not disclosed to him before purchase, because he purchased a camera and it can't be used as a camera until he agrees to an additional contract.
red_throwaway 4y ago
I'm pretty sure I would be granted a refund if I asked for one. That being said, I'm not left with a lot of options after returning it because there aren't many comparable alternatives for this class of camera. In fact, I don't know of even one camera that's as high quality without also being almost double the price. RED has a lot of leverage here.
- mikeyschaefer 4y ago
  Unless you need to shoot a lot of high frame (60fps+) rates I think there a lot of alternative options. There is incredible and award winning work made made with Sonys, Canons and Black Magic cameras and of course Arris. Producers and creative directors with big budgets love to get excited about Red cameras but most often the reality is they wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between footage from different manufacturers. I think Red is a bit of a status symbol at this point as all the competition has pretty much caught up. I think you could spend 50% of the price on a c500ii or a FX9 and get 90% of quality. That leaves a lot of money on the table for a decent set of cinema glass. Or you can get a used Alexa Mini for the same price as a Raptor.
- mindslight 4y ago
  You could buy a used one where someone else already pressed "agree" on the purported contract. Installable software is only able to push bullshit EULAs on the theory that the installation process involves making a copy, which they claim requires an explicit license to do. But using a device with already installed embedded software doesn't involve making any copies of the software, and thus you don't need a license - rather you're buying the installed copy under the first sale doctrine. But ultimately this is an abstract debate, because the main point of EULAs is to disclaim legal liability for the company, as contrasted with creating it for the user. Even if you do manage to avoid entering into their bullshit contract, the company will do whatever it wants with your data, and it will be up to you to sue them. Part of that uphill battle will be proving you didn't assent to their bullshit. So really, like always, an end user's protection is ultimately of a technical nature. If the camera (or accompanying desktop software) does not have Internet access, then there is no way for RED to backhaul your footage and there is no issue to be worried about. If the camera does have Internet access, then your data will easily leave your control, and that's the real flaw with the product to focus on!
- inetknght 4y ago
  > I'm pretty sure I would be granted a refund if I asked for one. Good luck getting a full refund without some restocking fee subtracted. Something like 15% of $30,000 is... reaching outside of small claims court
matyasrichter 4y ago
In the EU, you can return any goods purchased online (not sure about in-store) within 14 days without providing a reason. It's a different process from asking for a refund though the company's return policy.

jdsully 4y ago

There is an implied warranty of merchantability. If a EULA wasn’t disclosed until post purchase and is required for operation then the product isn’t operable and they would have to return it or find a way to make it operable. Your average store clerk will roll their eyes if you discuss this with them - you’d have to sue. For $30k it might be worth it, but most purchases it is not.

JohnHaugeland 4y ago
It's almost certain that the EULA is on the website
- jhugo 4y ago
  If I walk into a store and buy something and they never mention the surprise extra contractual terms I need to go looking for on the website, then those surprise extra contractual terms aren't part of the sales contract. He's entitled to a refund if the EULA terms were not disclosed to him before purchase, because he purchased a camera and it can't be used as a camera until he agrees to an additional contract.

red_throwaway 4y ago

I'm pretty sure I would be granted a refund if I asked for one. That being said, I'm not left with a lot of options after returning it because there aren't many comparable alternatives for this class of camera. In fact, I don't know of even one camera that's as high quality without also being almost double the price. RED has a lot of leverage here.

mikeyschaefer 4y ago
Unless you need to shoot a lot of high frame (60fps+) rates I think there a lot of alternative options. There is incredible and award winning work made made with Sonys, Canons and Black Magic cameras and of course Arris. Producers and creative directors with big budgets love to get excited about Red cameras but most often the reality is they wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between footage from different manufacturers. I think Red is a bit of a status symbol at this point as all the competition has pretty much caught up. I think you could spend 50% of the price on a c500ii or a FX9 and get 90% of quality. That leaves a lot of money on the table for a decent set of cinema glass. Or you can get a used Alexa Mini for the same price as a Raptor.
mindslight 4y ago
You could buy a used one where someone else already pressed "agree" on the purported contract. Installable software is only able to push bullshit EULAs on the theory that the installation process involves making a copy, which they claim requires an explicit license to do. But using a device with already installed embedded software doesn't involve making any copies of the software, and thus you don't need a license - rather you're buying the installed copy under the first sale doctrine. But ultimately this is an abstract debate, because the main point of EULAs is to disclaim legal liability for the company, as contrasted with creating it for the user. Even if you do manage to avoid entering into their bullshit contract, the company will do whatever it wants with your data, and it will be up to you to sue them. Part of that uphill battle will be proving you didn't assent to their bullshit. So really, like always, an end user's protection is ultimately of a technical nature. If the camera (or accompanying desktop software) does not have Internet access, then there is no way for RED to backhaul your footage and there is no issue to be worried about. If the camera does have Internet access, then your data will easily leave your control, and that's the real flaw with the product to focus on!
inetknght 4y ago
> I'm pretty sure I would be granted a refund if I asked for one. Good luck getting a full refund without some restocking fee subtracted. Something like 15% of $30,000 is... reaching outside of small claims court

matyasrichter 4y ago

In the EU, you can return any goods purchased online (not sure about in-store) within 14 days without providing a reason. It's a different process from asking for a refund though the company's return policy.