4 ms·

That’s not really a feasible solution in Python because that change would break a load of existing code.

mschuster91 4y ago
So what? Raise a deprecation notice, treat it as a fatal error in two or three years and that's it. PHP has been doing this for years now.
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  Also see: Python 2 => 3 hell. Nobody wants to repeat that.
  - fphhotchips 4y ago
    Right?! Imagine: "We're announcing Python 4. Python 3 was because we handled unicode in a way that turned out to make nearly 0 sense. Python 4 is because you lot can't put your f's in the right place."
- HL33tibCe7 4y ago
  We’re not talking about deprecating a feature here, we’re talking about the addition of behaviour that will break existing code, potentially in non-trivial and hard to debug ways, and in ways that could easily introduce security vulnerabilities.
- capitalsigma 4y ago
  Just bump the major version number from 3 to 4, right? How long could that migration take?
- dekhn 4y ago
  Python does not do this. A change like that would require a major version number increment and the community would revolt. Too bad we can't go back in time to 1996 or so.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  As someone who would like to be working on new, interesting things in 2-3 years rather than bringing old code into conformance with breaking changes, this attitude captures a worrisome trend in development. On the one hand, it's great that we have platforms that innovate and improve and harden over time, but we're also facing a development culture where more and more time is spent servicing package/platform/language/OS changes that have no material impact on our own otherwise-mature projects. It's worth being judicious about where breaking changes are applied, right?
  - mulmen 4y ago
    One person’s “new interesting thing” is another person’s “breaking change”.
- krisoft 4y ago
  > treat it as a fatal error Did you think this through? What would you treat as a fatal error? How would the compiler know if a particular string is old style code wanting to print some characters between curly braces or new style code wanting to string interpolate a variable?
- noobermin 4y ago
  We've done this too many times and we've had enough pain, let's please proceed at a pace where we can worry about delivering our product and not updating formatted strings, thank you.
- rglullis 4y ago
  PHP has also been responsible for the majority of exploited servers and misconfigured applications. Whatever they are doing it, I take it as a strong negative signal.
  - SquareWheel 4y ago
    That's not unreasonable considering that PHP is by far the most popular server-side language. It's not like we have many hackers targeting Erlang instead.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      It's out of proportion. Take as many Django/Rails/ASP.Net exploited sites that you find and it won't hold a candle to PHP. Also, want to talk Java? Let's not forget that log4j was exploited precisely because of implicit string conversions. Implicit f-strings are a really bad idea.
- Too 4y ago
  Changing something as deeply rooted as the string type? Python already went through exactly that disaster once before, when they changed the default string type from b””-strings to u””-strings. It took about 20 years for this transition to finally complete.

So what? Raise a deprecation notice, treat it as a fatal error in two or three years and that's it. PHP has been doing this for years now.

bornfreddy 4y ago
Also see: Python 2 => 3 hell. Nobody wants to repeat that.
- fphhotchips 4y ago
  Right?! Imagine: "We're announcing Python 4. Python 3 was because we handled unicode in a way that turned out to make nearly 0 sense. Python 4 is because you lot can't put your f's in the right place."
HL33tibCe7 4y ago
We’re not talking about deprecating a feature here, we’re talking about the addition of behaviour that will break existing code, potentially in non-trivial and hard to debug ways, and in ways that could easily introduce security vulnerabilities.
capitalsigma 4y ago
Just bump the major version number from 3 to 4, right? How long could that migration take?
dekhn 4y ago
Python does not do this. A change like that would require a major version number increment and the community would revolt. Too bad we can't go back in time to 1996 or so.
swatcoder 4y ago
As someone who would like to be working on new, interesting things in 2-3 years rather than bringing old code into conformance with breaking changes, this attitude captures a worrisome trend in development. On the one hand, it's great that we have platforms that innovate and improve and harden over time, but we're also facing a development culture where more and more time is spent servicing package/platform/language/OS changes that have no material impact on our own otherwise-mature projects. It's worth being judicious about where breaking changes are applied, right?
- mulmen 4y ago
  One person’s “new interesting thing” is another person’s “breaking change”.
krisoft 4y ago
> treat it as a fatal error Did you think this through? What would you treat as a fatal error? How would the compiler know if a particular string is old style code wanting to print some characters between curly braces or new style code wanting to string interpolate a variable?
noobermin 4y ago
We've done this too many times and we've had enough pain, let's please proceed at a pace where we can worry about delivering our product and not updating formatted strings, thank you.
rglullis 4y ago
PHP has also been responsible for the majority of exploited servers and misconfigured applications. Whatever they are doing it, I take it as a strong negative signal.
- SquareWheel 4y ago
  That's not unreasonable considering that PHP is by far the most popular server-side language. It's not like we have many hackers targeting Erlang instead.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    It's out of proportion. Take as many Django/Rails/ASP.Net exploited sites that you find and it won't hold a candle to PHP. Also, want to talk Java? Let's not forget that log4j was exploited precisely because of implicit string conversions. Implicit f-strings are a really bad idea.
Too 4y ago
Changing something as deeply rooted as the string type? Python already went through exactly that disaster once before, when they changed the default string type from b””-strings to u””-strings. It took about 20 years for this transition to finally complete.