5 ms·

Covid has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Your claim is not based on reality.

lbj 4y ago
In Denmark at least, through all of 2020 we had 0.0% increase in mortality. 2 weeks after we started vaccinating that number climbed to 12.6%, so we might find that the vaccines have killed even more people. Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease.
- Narkov 4y ago
  Correlation != causation.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease. Where are they not tracking "dead with covid" separately from "dead from covid"? Here in the UK we have very clearly recorded separate numbers for these (the "dead from" number were ~66% the "dead with" numbers until recently with the rise of Omicron meaning that far more people have covid and far few people are dying from it).
  - lbj 4y ago
    In Denmark we have only tracked "dead with" and then mid 2021 we had a large study to figure out the actual number of dead, which turned out to be about 120 people.
    - AlphaOne1 4y ago
      Do you have a citation for this? Very interesting and would like to look into this more.
stefan_ 4y ago
Yeah, but death is not a cardiovascular event you know - these people just suffocated.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
This very much depends on the age groups... For people younger than 40, covid still killed less people than traffic accidents, overdoses, suicides etc. in my country. In the 85yo+ group, the story is a bit different. Interestingly enough, most of the covid restrictions affected the young the most, while the old were mostly unaffected (tehnically they were all affected the same, but most old people are at home and in beds when curfews started).
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > less people than traffic accidents, overdoses, suicides Unless it's much less that doesn't mean much given that those are usually the largest killers of young people.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Well yeah, but you have to put things in perspective... we took away basic human rights (movement, assembly, relatively even speech), to save less people than if we banned driving for <40yo. Even with the vaccines, and the passive forcing of vaccinations (eg. limiting stuff you can do unless vaccinated or tested daily), most of the services where you needed the vaccine/test were used by the young people (shopping malls, cinemas, etc.), and not old people (who stereotipically just go to normal stores, pharmacy and a doctor). Just the number of extra suicides due to curfews was probably higher than the death rates in those age groups. In comparison, in total (so all age groups, including the 85yo+), we had more cigarette related deaths in those two years than of covid, and we still sell cigarettes pretty much everywhere.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      No, we did that to save the much higher number of people that would have been affected if we didn't impose restriction at the peaks. How much higher those numbers would have been is of course debatable. But given the exponential nature of spread, one assumes many more people would have been infected. And running out of hospital capacity to treat people would obviously have made deaths much worse. Cigarettes are very different in that mostly affect the person smoking (in many countries we do indeed ban smoking in enclosed public places).
cas14655 4y ago
Hundreds of thousands died with a positive PCR test, yes. But then everyone who died had one taken. Certainly, a number of those died because because of this particular infection but the average COVID death was a very old person who had two or more preexisting conditions. So the real question is: how many have died who would not have died of the flu or RSV or Andenovirus or Beta-coronavirus or any of the other innumerable causes of respiratory infections? Not to mention, this has nothing to do with people younger than 40 or even younger than 60.
- bonzini 4y ago
  There is data on excess mortality and the answer is, a lot. This is also why the with/from covid debate is pointless. If 100.000 people have died more than they would usually die, then no matter if they died due to covid or their condition was aggravated by it, that's 100.000 more people dying than in a year without covid.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - cas14655 4y ago
    Well except that a lot of countries didn't have any unusual excess mortality in 2020. And anyway how do you separate the deaths caused by the measures from the deaths caused by COVID? Such as Discharging hospital patients into care homes: https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/04/28/the-covid-care-homes-scandal/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/04/28/the-covid-care-home... "The practice of discharging untested patients from hospitals to care homes remained in force until 15 April 2020." Killing people with ventilators: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventilators-specia-idUSKCN2251PE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventil... "Bergmann’s case illustrates a shift on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic, as doctors rethink when and how to use mechanical ventilators to treat severe sufferers of the disease - and in some cases whether to use them at all. While initially doctors packed intensive care units with intubated patients, now many are exploring other options.
    - 4y ago

lbj 4y ago

In Denmark at least, through all of 2020 we had 0.0% increase in mortality. 2 weeks after we started vaccinating that number climbed to 12.6%, so we might find that the vaccines have killed even more people. Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease.

Narkov 4y ago
Correlation != causation.
nicoburns 4y ago
> Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease. Where are they not tracking "dead with covid" separately from "dead from covid"? Here in the UK we have very clearly recorded separate numbers for these (the "dead from" number were ~66% the "dead with" numbers until recently with the rise of Omicron meaning that far more people have covid and far few people are dying from it).
- lbj 4y ago
  In Denmark we have only tracked "dead with" and then mid 2021 we had a large study to figure out the actual number of dead, which turned out to be about 120 people.
  - AlphaOne1 4y ago
    Do you have a citation for this? Very interesting and would like to look into this more.

stefan_ 4y ago

Yeah, but death is not a cardiovascular event you know - these people just suffocated.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

This very much depends on the age groups... For people younger than 40, covid still killed less people than traffic accidents, overdoses, suicides etc. in my country. In the 85yo+ group, the story is a bit different. Interestingly enough, most of the covid restrictions affected the young the most, while the old were mostly unaffected (tehnically they were all affected the same, but most old people are at home and in beds when curfews started).

nicoburns 4y ago
> less people than traffic accidents, overdoses, suicides Unless it's much less that doesn't mean much given that those are usually the largest killers of young people.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Well yeah, but you have to put things in perspective... we took away basic human rights (movement, assembly, relatively even speech), to save less people than if we banned driving for <40yo. Even with the vaccines, and the passive forcing of vaccinations (eg. limiting stuff you can do unless vaccinated or tested daily), most of the services where you needed the vaccine/test were used by the young people (shopping malls, cinemas, etc.), and not old people (who stereotipically just go to normal stores, pharmacy and a doctor). Just the number of extra suicides due to curfews was probably higher than the death rates in those age groups. In comparison, in total (so all age groups, including the 85yo+), we had more cigarette related deaths in those two years than of covid, and we still sell cigarettes pretty much everywhere.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    No, we did that to save the much higher number of people that would have been affected if we didn't impose restriction at the peaks. How much higher those numbers would have been is of course debatable. But given the exponential nature of spread, one assumes many more people would have been infected. And running out of hospital capacity to treat people would obviously have made deaths much worse. Cigarettes are very different in that mostly affect the person smoking (in many countries we do indeed ban smoking in enclosed public places).

cas14655 4y ago

Hundreds of thousands died with a positive PCR test, yes. But then everyone who died had one taken. Certainly, a number of those died because because of this particular infection but the average COVID death was a very old person who had two or more preexisting conditions. So the real question is: how many have died who would not have died of the flu or RSV or Andenovirus or Beta-coronavirus or any of the other innumerable causes of respiratory infections? Not to mention, this has nothing to do with people younger than 40 or even younger than 60.

bonzini 4y ago
There is data on excess mortality and the answer is, a lot. This is also why the with/from covid debate is pointless. If 100.000 people have died more than they would usually die, then no matter if they died due to covid or their condition was aggravated by it, that's 100.000 more people dying than in a year without covid.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cas14655 4y ago
  Well except that a lot of countries didn't have any unusual excess mortality in 2020. And anyway how do you separate the deaths caused by the measures from the deaths caused by COVID? Such as Discharging hospital patients into care homes: https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/04/28/the-covid-care-homes-scandal/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/04/28/the-covid-care-home... "The practice of discharging untested patients from hospitals to care homes remained in force until 15 April 2020." Killing people with ventilators: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventilators-specia-idUSKCN2251PE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventil... "Bergmann’s case illustrates a shift on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic, as doctors rethink when and how to use mechanical ventilators to treat severe sufferers of the disease - and in some cases whether to use them at all. While initially doctors packed intensive care units with intubated patients, now many are exploring other options.
  - 4y ago