4 ms·

California has a really strict view of what a contractor is, so 1099s are not as feasible as they seem in CA: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontrac

California has a really strict view of what a contractor is, so 1099s are not as feasible as they seem in CA: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm#:~:text=AB%205%20requires%20the%20application,Commission%20(IWC)%20wage%20orders https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm#:~.... IANAL, but if you are building a software product, and you hire someone to do software development work on your core product, then CA may easily take the view that person is an employee because of the ABC test (as of September 2019).

Animats 4y ago
Yes. The ABC test is simple. Someone is an independent contractor only if: 1. You don't tell them what to do, you just negotiate an end product. 2. Your main business is something else. 3. They routinely have other clients. All three, or they're an employee. The plumber who unclogs your drains is an independent contractor. Someone who does the work of your business is an employee. It's that simple.
- rhacker 4y ago
  Isn't a plumber just someone providing a service - not an independent contractor? Like if I did 20000K of work with that plumber, I'm not sending a 1099.
  - throwaway09223 4y ago
    Yes, but at scale and in a lawsuit, the court will look at the totality of the situation. Many companies hire through staffing companies, rather than hiring 1099s directly. But when the contracting company only provides a service to you, and their 1099s are only contracted to your offices, you may find that the employees of this other company are considered to be employees of your company instead. Courts can decide to pierce these abstractions. The most notable example is the Microsoft permatemp lawsuit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp If your company has so much piping that the local plumber hires staff dedicated to you for years on end, then it's conceivable that a court would decide that the plumbing company's employees are actually your employees. Personally, I've always wondered whether government contractors could win a lawsuit to be considered government employees. The US government is by far the biggest "permatemp" employer and seems to itself regularly flout these kinds of laws.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      >Personally, I've always wondered whether government contractors could win a lawsuit to be considered government employees. The US government is by far the biggest "permatemp" employer and seems to itself regularly flout these kinds of laws. Maybe if this nonsense was actually addressed and made strict, the US government would finally be forced to provide just compensation for it's employees instead of always just shoving piles of money at external contractors and allowing untold grift
  - bombcar 4y ago
    If the plumber business is incorporated you are not required to file: You are engaged in a trade or business and the payment was made to another business that is incorporated, but was not for medical or legal services Otherwise, you are supposed to file a 1099 (assuming it was trade/business work, not personal stuff for your house, etc). https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/am-i-required-to-file-a-form-1099-or-other-information-return https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    Businesses (or individuals hiring service providers on behalf of their business activities) are required to provide 1099s. 1099s are not provided for services provided for non-business reasons.
- theptip 4y ago
  The ABC test itself may be simple (though rule B seems open to interpretation as to what it means to " ...perform work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity's business."), but figuring out where the ABC test applies is not simple; they quickly realized that applying this test across the board would completely decimate a bunch of legitimate industries, and so they carved out a wide swathe of exceptions. For example, see https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/exempt-job-categories-under-californias-new-ab5-law.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/exempt-job-categorie.... Software consulting probably (IANAL) falls under "Business to business consulting", at least if you structure your consulting shop correctly. If you're just working long-term full-time for one client and not offering your services up elsewhere as the GP's case describes, you're probably mis-classified under the ABC rule.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  All part of California is war against small businesses and independent contractors. They absolutely hate orgs and individuals that provide an alternative to California's onerous requirements and don't pay into the state funds
hnburnsy 4y ago
How do Facebook et al get away with hiring contractor platform moderators? It certainly doesn't pass this contractor requirement... "The worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business"
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  They probably don't have any in California, or they engage a company to provide moderation services for them.
- masonic 4y ago
  They're in the Philippines.

Animats 4y ago

Yes. The ABC test is simple. Someone is an independent contractor only if: 1. You don't tell them what to do, you just negotiate an end product. 2. Your main business is something else. 3. They routinely have other clients. All three, or they're an employee. The plumber who unclogs your drains is an independent contractor. Someone who does the work of your business is an employee. It's that simple.

rhacker 4y ago
Isn't a plumber just someone providing a service - not an independent contractor? Like if I did 20000K of work with that plumber, I'm not sending a 1099.
- throwaway09223 4y ago
  Yes, but at scale and in a lawsuit, the court will look at the totality of the situation. Many companies hire through staffing companies, rather than hiring 1099s directly. But when the contracting company only provides a service to you, and their 1099s are only contracted to your offices, you may find that the employees of this other company are considered to be employees of your company instead. Courts can decide to pierce these abstractions. The most notable example is the Microsoft permatemp lawsuit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp If your company has so much piping that the local plumber hires staff dedicated to you for years on end, then it's conceivable that a court would decide that the plumbing company's employees are actually your employees. Personally, I've always wondered whether government contractors could win a lawsuit to be considered government employees. The US government is by far the biggest "permatemp" employer and seems to itself regularly flout these kinds of laws.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    >Personally, I've always wondered whether government contractors could win a lawsuit to be considered government employees. The US government is by far the biggest "permatemp" employer and seems to itself regularly flout these kinds of laws. Maybe if this nonsense was actually addressed and made strict, the US government would finally be forced to provide just compensation for it's employees instead of always just shoving piles of money at external contractors and allowing untold grift
- bombcar 4y ago
  If the plumber business is incorporated you are not required to file: You are engaged in a trade or business and the payment was made to another business that is incorporated, but was not for medical or legal services Otherwise, you are supposed to file a 1099 (assuming it was trade/business work, not personal stuff for your house, etc). https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/am-i-required-to-file-a-form-1099-or-other-information-return https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...
- gamblor956 4y ago
  Businesses (or individuals hiring service providers on behalf of their business activities) are required to provide 1099s. 1099s are not provided for services provided for non-business reasons.
theptip 4y ago
The ABC test itself may be simple (though rule B seems open to interpretation as to what it means to " ...perform work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity's business."), but figuring out where the ABC test applies is not simple; they quickly realized that applying this test across the board would completely decimate a bunch of legitimate industries, and so they carved out a wide swathe of exceptions. For example, see https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/exempt-job-categories-under-californias-new-ab5-law.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/exempt-job-categorie.... Software consulting probably (IANAL) falls under "Business to business consulting", at least if you structure your consulting shop correctly. If you're just working long-term full-time for one client and not offering your services up elsewhere as the GP's case describes, you're probably mis-classified under the ABC rule.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
All part of California is war against small businesses and independent contractors. They absolutely hate orgs and individuals that provide an alternative to California's onerous requirements and don't pay into the state funds

hnburnsy 4y ago

How do Facebook et al get away with hiring contractor platform moderators? It certainly doesn't pass this contractor requirement... "The worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business"

disgruntledphd2 4y ago
They probably don't have any in California, or they engage a company to provide moderation services for them.
masonic 4y ago
They're in the Philippines.