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Before this gets sensationalized more than it has, let’s consider that cognitive ability also plays a heavy roll in learning to play music. There may be some ne

Before this gets sensationalized more than it has, let’s consider that cognitive ability also plays a heavy roll in learning to play music. There may be some net synergistic effect music playing has on other cognitive function but the brain is also effected heavily when listening to music. I suspect there is not a link between musical training and cognitive abilities but they are the result of having a brain that can function well in whatever it does.

RobertRoberts 4y ago
It could also be argued that music training is common and fairly consistent (results/goal wise) and therefore easy to measure. And it may be found that _any_ kind of very organized training over time provides the same sort of benefits, not just music specifically.
cshimmin 4y ago
This is noted in the article, "A direct causal link between musical training and general cognitive faculties, however, seems unlikely." The point of the article is that they've found a specific neurological relationship between two types of working memory: "The results show that if musical training influences visual working memory, then it does so via the “detour” of musical working memory. In other words, by way of its primary benefits for musical working memory, musical training could have a positive effect on visual working memory as well."
whiddershins 4y ago
After a couple of years of learning Tai chi, my hand independence on piano altered dramatically. Hard to call it a coincidence. I think mind-body training can and does change cognitive ability, it’s almost a given. If we doubt this, it’s more likely our ways of measuring are goofed up.
- tragictrash 4y ago
  It may be hard to call it coincidence for you, but to everyone else thats a sample size of 1.
  - blastro 4y ago
    Count it as N=2, my anecdote aligns with this one. :)
treeman79 4y ago
My cognitive ability started bouncing between near genius to hillbilly. (Medical issue) Was learning an instrument at the time. Was going really well. Then on bad weeks twinkle twinkle was a foreign concept. I had to wait for good weeks to make any progress.
- luckydata 4y ago
  hi Taravangian!
  - elliotbnvl 4y ago
    I will not allow this to become an underrated comment.
    - kinleyd 4y ago
      Why? I'm interested to know.
      - treeman79 4y ago
        He has a magic power that changes his intelligence each day. Mostly Normal. Occasionally stupid or smart. Very rarely it would go to absurd extreme. Imagine waking up and before breakfast you solved unified theory of physics. Then got to work on something that might actually be hard. Part of the Storm-light archive. An awesome inspirational epic fantasy series. One that helped me during the dark days of recovery.
  - treeman79 4y ago
    His character is my entire world. For a long time I would take a simple memory test online each day to see how I was doing. Results were drastic changes day to day. I was trying to figure out what effect each of the dozens of medications doctors gave me we’re having. A simple blood thinner stopped the non-sense.
    - 4y ago
noTooMooch 4y ago
There is an observable difference in brain activity between playing an instrument and actively listening: https://youtu.be/R0JKCYZ8hng https://youtu.be/R0JKCYZ8hng The activity of playing is unlike other skills based learning, including other arts. All this is in the video. It’s the intersection of applying ephemeral knowledge (music theory, intuition for what sounds good) and active muscle memory building. Personally, since picking up guitar and piano during lockdown, I’ve definitely noticed I’m faster at pattern recognition, more readily see simpler solutions to logic problems, and can find focus and flow with less effort. I did play saxophone from 5th grade on, but quit after HS; I was playing music before that too. The years in between just feel colorless and uninspired. Will it make one Einstein? No. But it definitely brings a cognitive perspective, sense of self awareness and agency, nuanced inner monologue, that’s missing in its absence. I don’t get uptight about proper music theory and all that. I just pluck my way into patterns that sound cool to me, build fluency playing them. It’s more like deep work than desire to succeed; I’ve tried meditating, yoga, etc, over years and nothing brings inner peace and sense of self like playing music. But you know; ymmv
user3939382 4y ago
Reading your comment I remembered a story I heard about Jimmy Reed. Who knows if it's true, but the story was that he wasn't sharp enough to remember the words to his own songs, and his wife had to stand behind him on stage and whisper to him to remind him. Hell of a blues player though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xXchxodYg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xXchxodYg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Reed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Reed
- jessermeyer 4y ago
  Nah, concert singers have teleprompts to remind them of the words. They never show the chords though. Curious divide.
- Melatonic 4y ago
  He could also be someone like me where it is just very difficult to separate the voice and words of a singer from the instruments. If I listen to a song and do not actively try to decipher what the singer is saying it becomes just another instrument.
- bambax 4y ago
  McCartney says in an interview about the early days of the Beatles that they used to compose and rehearse new songs in hotel rooms with no recording device or paper, and the goal was to be able to play the new songs the day after. He says (quoting from memory): "if we couldn't remember our own songs how could we expect audiences to remember them?" If a song is hard to remember it may have a hard time becoming a hit.
- alimov 4y ago
  If it’s true then they made some great music as a team
redmen 4y ago
It's all about the feedback loops between the brain, instrument and fingers. Musical training is an amazingly fast way to shape your brain if you know what you are doing. It's one of the few engaging activities that offer that quick feedback and covers so many areas of the brain. You can find hundreds of studies linking music and cognitive ability.
alimov 4y ago
Glad I saw this comment before checking out my cart full of guitars, drums, pianos, and a harmonica. Joking aside, would it be a stretch to say that learning to play an instrument well also grows confidence and develops a level of perseverance? Being bad at playing an instrument can be pretty discouraging, until one day you start to get the hang of it, giving more confidence to continue practicing and learning. Maybe that perseverance* bleeds over into other areas.
- gfody 4y ago
  learning anything exercises your learning abilities and they get stronger. if we ever truly understand "learning ability" it's bound to include things like confidence and perseverance among other things. I feel like this basic intuition is behind every "links to cognitive abilities" study I've ever seen, even the recent one about daily drinkers (who probably just don't exercise their minds as much)
  - alimov 4y ago
    > I feel like this basic intuition is behind every "links to cognitive abilities" study I've ever seen I’ve had this impression as well
- ushakov 4y ago
  most people who start learning an instrument quit not quitting alone will eventually make you better than most who tried and quit speaking of personal experience
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    This is an excellent point. Perseverance is the key to most achievements unless you are one of those very lucky people that are naturally gifted and able to do something with only a very small fraction of the practice of the 'regulars'. Even then that isn't a guarantee because you still need motivation.
    - 4y ago
throwaway6532 4y ago
Playing drums thickens the corpus collosum apparently: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/327279 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/327279

RobertRoberts 4y ago

It could also be argued that music training is common and fairly consistent (results/goal wise) and therefore easy to measure. And it may be found that _any_ kind of very organized training over time provides the same sort of benefits, not just music specifically.

cshimmin 4y ago

This is noted in the article, "A direct causal link between musical training and general cognitive faculties, however, seems unlikely." The point of the article is that they've found a specific neurological relationship between two types of working memory: "The results show that if musical training influences visual working memory, then it does so via the “detour” of musical working memory. In other words, by way of its primary benefits for musical working memory, musical training could have a positive effect on visual working memory as well."

whiddershins 4y ago

After a couple of years of learning Tai chi, my hand independence on piano altered dramatically. Hard to call it a coincidence. I think mind-body training can and does change cognitive ability, it’s almost a given. If we doubt this, it’s more likely our ways of measuring are goofed up.

tragictrash 4y ago
It may be hard to call it coincidence for you, but to everyone else thats a sample size of 1.
- blastro 4y ago
  Count it as N=2, my anecdote aligns with this one. :)

treeman79 4y ago

My cognitive ability started bouncing between near genius to hillbilly. (Medical issue) Was learning an instrument at the time. Was going really well. Then on bad weeks twinkle twinkle was a foreign concept. I had to wait for good weeks to make any progress.

luckydata 4y ago
hi Taravangian!
- elliotbnvl 4y ago
  I will not allow this to become an underrated comment.
  - kinleyd 4y ago
    Why? I'm interested to know.
    - treeman79 4y ago
      He has a magic power that changes his intelligence each day. Mostly Normal. Occasionally stupid or smart. Very rarely it would go to absurd extreme. Imagine waking up and before breakfast you solved unified theory of physics. Then got to work on something that might actually be hard. Part of the Storm-light archive. An awesome inspirational epic fantasy series. One that helped me during the dark days of recovery.
- treeman79 4y ago
  His character is my entire world. For a long time I would take a simple memory test online each day to see how I was doing. Results were drastic changes day to day. I was trying to figure out what effect each of the dozens of medications doctors gave me we’re having. A simple blood thinner stopped the non-sense.
  - 4y ago

noTooMooch 4y ago

There is an observable difference in brain activity between playing an instrument and actively listening: https://youtu.be/R0JKCYZ8hng https://youtu.be/R0JKCYZ8hng The activity of playing is unlike other skills based learning, including other arts. All this is in the video. It’s the intersection of applying ephemeral knowledge (music theory, intuition for what sounds good) and active muscle memory building. Personally, since picking up guitar and piano during lockdown, I’ve definitely noticed I’m faster at pattern recognition, more readily see simpler solutions to logic problems, and can find focus and flow with less effort. I did play saxophone from 5th grade on, but quit after HS; I was playing music before that too. The years in between just feel colorless and uninspired. Will it make one Einstein? No. But it definitely brings a cognitive perspective, sense of self awareness and agency, nuanced inner monologue, that’s missing in its absence. I don’t get uptight about proper music theory and all that. I just pluck my way into patterns that sound cool to me, build fluency playing them. It’s more like deep work than desire to succeed; I’ve tried meditating, yoga, etc, over years and nothing brings inner peace and sense of self like playing music. But you know; ymmv

user3939382 4y ago

Reading your comment I remembered a story I heard about Jimmy Reed. Who knows if it's true, but the story was that he wasn't sharp enough to remember the words to his own songs, and his wife had to stand behind him on stage and whisper to him to remind him. Hell of a blues player though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xXchxodYg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xXchxodYg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Reed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Reed

jessermeyer 4y ago
Nah, concert singers have teleprompts to remind them of the words. They never show the chords though. Curious divide.
Melatonic 4y ago
He could also be someone like me where it is just very difficult to separate the voice and words of a singer from the instruments. If I listen to a song and do not actively try to decipher what the singer is saying it becomes just another instrument.
bambax 4y ago
McCartney says in an interview about the early days of the Beatles that they used to compose and rehearse new songs in hotel rooms with no recording device or paper, and the goal was to be able to play the new songs the day after. He says (quoting from memory): "if we couldn't remember our own songs how could we expect audiences to remember them?" If a song is hard to remember it may have a hard time becoming a hit.
alimov 4y ago
If it’s true then they made some great music as a team

redmen 4y ago

It's all about the feedback loops between the brain, instrument and fingers. Musical training is an amazingly fast way to shape your brain if you know what you are doing. It's one of the few engaging activities that offer that quick feedback and covers so many areas of the brain. You can find hundreds of studies linking music and cognitive ability.

alimov 4y ago

Glad I saw this comment before checking out my cart full of guitars, drums, pianos, and a harmonica. Joking aside, would it be a stretch to say that learning to play an instrument well also grows confidence and develops a level of perseverance? Being bad at playing an instrument can be pretty discouraging, until one day you start to get the hang of it, giving more confidence to continue practicing and learning. Maybe that perseverance* bleeds over into other areas.

gfody 4y ago
learning anything exercises your learning abilities and they get stronger. if we ever truly understand "learning ability" it's bound to include things like confidence and perseverance among other things. I feel like this basic intuition is behind every "links to cognitive abilities" study I've ever seen, even the recent one about daily drinkers (who probably just don't exercise their minds as much)
- alimov 4y ago
  > I feel like this basic intuition is behind every "links to cognitive abilities" study I've ever seen I’ve had this impression as well
ushakov 4y ago
most people who start learning an instrument quit not quitting alone will eventually make you better than most who tried and quit speaking of personal experience
- jacquesm 4y ago
  This is an excellent point. Perseverance is the key to most achievements unless you are one of those very lucky people that are naturally gifted and able to do something with only a very small fraction of the practice of the 'regulars'. Even then that isn't a guarantee because you still need motivation.
  - 4y ago

throwaway6532 4y ago

Playing drums thickens the corpus collosum apparently: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/327279 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/327279