17 ms·

I remember this project from a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25063726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25063726 Very cool idea but the s

I remember this project from a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25063726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25063726 Very cool idea but the screen used was $2k+, and two years later the price is the same. Seems like we're still a long way off from reasonably priced large e-ink displays -- very curious to see any progress in this space.

robinsoh 4y ago
> Seems like we're still a long way off from reasonably priced large e-ink displays -- very curious to see any progress in this space "reasonably priced"? It will always be more expensive than LCD/OLED because the volumes are completely different, like 1000x different.
- jonplackett 4y ago
  Surely if it’s much cheaper volumes also go up massively…
  - goldcd 4y ago
    Surely it's both. 1) Product has to exist - and now it does tick 2) Has to be useful tick 3) Has to have possibility of being make cheaper by mass production no idea 4) Has to be put into mass production depends on 3 So we're currently stuck on 3. Not sure there's much demand for a colour e-ink tablet - but maybe could be layered with a transparent OLED. I'd cough up an extra £100 for that. Normal tablet - with reading mode. Spend a while looking at static image, OLED turns off, e-ink layer fires up. Scroll down and the OLED takes over.
    - jonplackett 4y ago
      That would be pretty cool. Could the e-ink just be set to white while the LCD did it’s thing and the LCD to clear while e-ink does it’s thing?
  - robinsoh 4y ago
    > Surely if it’s much cheaper volumes also go up massively… No, that's not true. If you're making a black and white screen, and you sell it at the same price as a color screen, nobody will buy it. Volumes won't change if your product isn't better than something equivalently priced.
    - thrown12 4y ago
      I bought it and it's an amazing product for coding.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      But the E-ink screen is much better in the regards that software developers want. Colour is not necessarily one of those regards.
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      Either this makes little sense, or it is (or may be) unclear. «Your product [must be] better than something equivalently priced» /and that performs the same function/. Now we are talking about large bistable colour displays - which have no competition.
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    I am so disappointed that Amazon doesn't invest more in the Kindle. They have deep pockets and a guaranteed market. Currently, I am still holding out for an upgrade of the Oasis, but would be willing to spend quite some money for upgraded Kindles and I think I am not alone (even if they just go to 8" and USB-C/Qi charging, it would be worth it). Of course a 10" Kindle would be nice and a true A4 Kindle just a dream.
- Kuinox 4y ago
  The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. There are tons of applications of low power screen. It could even outweighs the OLED in term of volume. Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. Add color to it and it's the perfect screen for a lot of computer work.
  - fortran77 4y ago
    This is an old trope on Hacker News, as predictable as "have you tried re-writing it in Rust." But there's little evidence it's true.
    - jokowueu 4y ago
      I don't think he is saying patents are bad. But the company it's self is .
      - robinsoh 4y ago
        > But the company it's self is . and it would be lovely if he could share what leads him to believe that.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        Kuinox 4y ago
        Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill.
        ThrowawayR2 4y ago
        There has been no evidence presented whatsoever for the assertion that e-Ink has been abusing their IP other than one post from a throwaway account on HN a couple of years ago. No corroborating news articles about lawsuits, which the post alleged; no filings about acquisitions, which the post alleged; nothing. But somehow HN posters have adopted that as the truth?
- m-p-3 4y ago
  If the tech becomes attractice enough (high visibility in direct sunlight, lower power consumption, etc), maybe we'll see more public advertisers switch to them for digital signage, significantly increasing the demand and volume. One can dream..
  - robinsoh 4y ago
    > One can dream.. Of faster than light travel? :-) They're limited by the physics of electrophoresis.
    - m-p-3 4y ago
      I mean there's other ways than refresh rate where there can be improvement, especially on color eInk displays. They managed to increase the DPI on this version after all :)
  - rory096 4y ago
    The transit stop use case really does seem to be ramping up, including the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority currently adding them to most surface Green Line stops: https://www.mbta.com/projects/solar-powered-e-ink-signs https://www.mbta.com/projects/solar-powered-e-ink-signs Transit was one of the two core practical applications the Visionect founder mentioned in Nov 2020: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359
    - m-p-3 4y ago
      Interesting. Now I'm curious about the tech used behind it to transmit the info accross the network. I'm wondering if a LoRa/LoRaWAN-based mesh network could do the trick to avoid using some kind of cell data or wired infrastructure, but also be energy-efficient enough to work using only solar power.
  - Melatonic 4y ago
    Aren't all e-ink displays highly visible in direct sunlight? You need exterior to even use them in the first place
- mdp2021 4y ago
  «Reasonably priced» very probably just meant "a price closer to their individual potential buyers' attributed value". That «LCD/OLED» will be cheaper does not affect that.
wakeupcall 4y ago
As written by others, probably due to eink the company itself. I love eink. I have several readers, a remarkable which I adore. I wouldn't mind using a slow-refresh display for coding. The price just makes it impossible. Having color for this task, even if washed out, would be an absolute boon. As for all eink announcements, they may have the tech, but they might make it so so expensive that nobody is going to translate it into mass production product. Without volume, we'll never get better prices. Been watching eink for a lifetime now. I read each announcement as a red herring at this point..
- dotancohen 4y ago
  > Been watching eink for a lifetime now. I read each announcement as a red herring at this point.. I didn't even want to read the announcement, because I already know it's showcasing exactly the tech that I want but will never be made available. I've had half a dozen E-ink devices and I love them. But it seems like the company behind the tech has an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands.
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    >an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands. They seem to act that way, but what would be the actual incentive? (As apposed to just bad business acumen)
    - mertd 4y ago
      They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it.
      - jve 4y ago
        Yeah I wonder if price point is justified or not. Accessible pricing may result in eink screens taking consumers, businesses, hobbyists and whatnot by storm. But meh...
hemreldop 4y ago
m12k 4y ago
I just wish it was possible to build a version of the Frame TV that didn't still use 30% power while in "picture mode" but instead used a color e-ink display like this to cover the screen with art/photos when not in TV mode.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  It is a cool idea, but creating that would require you to put a color e-ink display over the normal display panel, which may cause it to look washed out/lose crispness. I think it is technically possible, I'm just not sure many would accept the cost/functionality trade-offs. But I may be wrong.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    I think the idea parent comment had is to use the rollable technology from the article so that it only overlays when not in use.
- RoryH 4y ago
  Yes! This is the perfect use case for Photo frames, or even for advertising billboards where there's no need to have humans change the advert.
xd1936 4y ago
I too think about this project all the time. I wish I could have a wall-mounted raw display to use with a Pi or Arduino as a picture frame that didn't cost thousands of dollars for the panel.

robinsoh 4y ago

> Seems like we're still a long way off from reasonably priced large e-ink displays -- very curious to see any progress in this space "reasonably priced"? It will always be more expensive than LCD/OLED because the volumes are completely different, like 1000x different.

jonplackett 4y ago
Surely if it’s much cheaper volumes also go up massively…
- goldcd 4y ago
  Surely it's both. 1) Product has to exist - and now it does tick 2) Has to be useful tick 3) Has to have possibility of being make cheaper by mass production no idea 4) Has to be put into mass production depends on 3 So we're currently stuck on 3. Not sure there's much demand for a colour e-ink tablet - but maybe could be layered with a transparent OLED. I'd cough up an extra £100 for that. Normal tablet - with reading mode. Spend a while looking at static image, OLED turns off, e-ink layer fires up. Scroll down and the OLED takes over.
  - jonplackett 4y ago
    That would be pretty cool. Could the e-ink just be set to white while the LCD did it’s thing and the LCD to clear while e-ink does it’s thing?
- robinsoh 4y ago
  > Surely if it’s much cheaper volumes also go up massively… No, that's not true. If you're making a black and white screen, and you sell it at the same price as a color screen, nobody will buy it. Volumes won't change if your product isn't better than something equivalently priced.
  - thrown12 4y ago
    I bought it and it's an amazing product for coding.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    But the E-ink screen is much better in the regards that software developers want. Colour is not necessarily one of those regards.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    Either this makes little sense, or it is (or may be) unclear. «Your product [must be] better than something equivalently priced» /and that performs the same function/. Now we are talking about large bistable colour displays - which have no competition.
- _ph_ 4y ago
  I am so disappointed that Amazon doesn't invest more in the Kindle. They have deep pockets and a guaranteed market. Currently, I am still holding out for an upgrade of the Oasis, but would be willing to spend quite some money for upgraded Kindles and I think I am not alone (even if they just go to 8" and USB-C/Qi charging, it would be worth it). Of course a 10" Kindle would be nice and a true A4 Kindle just a dream.
Kuinox 4y ago
The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. There are tons of applications of low power screen. It could even outweighs the OLED in term of volume. Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. Add color to it and it's the perfect screen for a lot of computer work.
- fortran77 4y ago
  This is an old trope on Hacker News, as predictable as "have you tried re-writing it in Rust." But there's little evidence it's true.
  - jokowueu 4y ago
    I don't think he is saying patents are bad. But the company it's self is .
    - robinsoh 4y ago
      > But the company it's self is . and it would be lovely if he could share what leads him to believe that.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - Kuinox 4y ago
        Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill.
        ThrowawayR2 4y ago
        There has been no evidence presented whatsoever for the assertion that e-Ink has been abusing their IP other than one post from a throwaway account on HN a couple of years ago. No corroborating news articles about lawsuits, which the post alleged; no filings about acquisitions, which the post alleged; nothing. But somehow HN posters have adopted that as the truth?
m-p-3 4y ago
If the tech becomes attractice enough (high visibility in direct sunlight, lower power consumption, etc), maybe we'll see more public advertisers switch to them for digital signage, significantly increasing the demand and volume. One can dream..
- robinsoh 4y ago
  > One can dream.. Of faster than light travel? :-) They're limited by the physics of electrophoresis.
  - m-p-3 4y ago
    I mean there's other ways than refresh rate where there can be improvement, especially on color eInk displays. They managed to increase the DPI on this version after all :)
- rory096 4y ago
  The transit stop use case really does seem to be ramping up, including the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority currently adding them to most surface Green Line stops: https://www.mbta.com/projects/solar-powered-e-ink-signs https://www.mbta.com/projects/solar-powered-e-ink-signs Transit was one of the two core practical applications the Visionect founder mentioned in Nov 2020: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359
  - m-p-3 4y ago
    Interesting. Now I'm curious about the tech used behind it to transmit the info accross the network. I'm wondering if a LoRa/LoRaWAN-based mesh network could do the trick to avoid using some kind of cell data or wired infrastructure, but also be energy-efficient enough to work using only solar power.
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Aren't all e-ink displays highly visible in direct sunlight? You need exterior to even use them in the first place
mdp2021 4y ago
«Reasonably priced» very probably just meant "a price closer to their individual potential buyers' attributed value". That «LCD/OLED» will be cheaper does not affect that.

wakeupcall 4y ago

As written by others, probably due to eink the company itself. I love eink. I have several readers, a remarkable which I adore. I wouldn't mind using a slow-refresh display for coding. The price just makes it impossible. Having color for this task, even if washed out, would be an absolute boon. As for all eink announcements, they may have the tech, but they might make it so so expensive that nobody is going to translate it into mass production product. Without volume, we'll never get better prices. Been watching eink for a lifetime now. I read each announcement as a red herring at this point..

dotancohen 4y ago
> Been watching eink for a lifetime now. I read each announcement as a red herring at this point.. I didn't even want to read the announcement, because I already know it's showcasing exactly the tech that I want but will never be made available. I've had half a dozen E-ink devices and I love them. But it seems like the company behind the tech has an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands.
- ineedasername 4y ago
  >an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands. They seem to act that way, but what would be the actual incentive? (As apposed to just bad business acumen)
  - mertd 4y ago
    They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it.
    - jve 4y ago
      Yeah I wonder if price point is justified or not. Accessible pricing may result in eink screens taking consumers, businesses, hobbyists and whatnot by storm. But meh...

hemreldop 4y ago

m12k 4y ago

I just wish it was possible to build a version of the Frame TV that didn't still use 30% power while in "picture mode" but instead used a color e-ink display like this to cover the screen with art/photos when not in TV mode.

Someone1234 4y ago
It is a cool idea, but creating that would require you to put a color e-ink display over the normal display panel, which may cause it to look washed out/lose crispness. I think it is technically possible, I'm just not sure many would accept the cost/functionality trade-offs. But I may be wrong.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  I think the idea parent comment had is to use the rollable technology from the article so that it only overlays when not in use.
RoryH 4y ago
Yes! This is the perfect use case for Photo frames, or even for advertising billboards where there's no need to have humans change the advert.

xd1936 4y ago

I too think about this project all the time. I wish I could have a wall-mounted raw display to use with a Pi or Arduino as a picture frame that didn't cost thousands of dollars for the panel.