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Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)
- bediger4000 4y agoThe "Snowden Associate" in the title is Bart Gellman, a long time Washington Post reporter who's covered national security issues in some detail for years and years. Just looking at his Wikipedia entry, he's been a thorn in the side of the DoD and other authorities forever. This is not to make light or, or poo-poo his concerns or the counter-measures he takes, but rather to note that he should be watching his back after a career like that. Like Ben Franklin once said, "Never charge someone more money than it costs to kill you."
- whatshisface 4y agoThere is no real evidence that the NSA kills its enemies or even that the CIA does when those enemies are American citizens.
- smingo 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Derwish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Derwish
- boomboomsubban 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
- whatshisface 4y agoSo I guess Obama ordered the death of a citizen of his own country. So much for my defense.
- boomboomsubban 4y agoWhile I'm not ignoring Obama's role in the attack, >the strike was carried out by Joint Special Operations Command, under the direction of the CIA. The CIA assassinating an American Citizen.
- the_only_law 4y ago> The CIA assassinating an American Citizen. Oh they’ve done much worse to US citizens, and got away with it.
- ncmncm 4y agoThis one right out in public, though. They have got brazen.
- stuxnet 4y agoThey got his 16 year old son two weeks later, also a US citizen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Aw...
- gentleman11 4y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Fi...
- chrononaut 4y agoFidel Castro was an American citizen? > .. that the CIA does when those enemies are American citizens.
- sha256sum 4y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton Context: “ In 1967, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) identified Hampton as a radical threat. It tried to subvert his activities in Chicago, sowing disinformation among black progressive groups and placing a counterintelligence operative in the local Panthers organization. In December 1969, Hampton was drugged, shot and killed in his bed during a predawn raid at his Chicago apartment by a tactical unit of the Cook County State's Attorney's Office, who received aid from the Chicago Police Department and the FBI leading up to the attack.”
- whatshisface 4y agoThat's a local PD killing someone, we know they do that a lot. People also get swatted, the FBI is not the only group of people who sends out local PDs in a way that gets citizens killed.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sha256sum 4y agoAre you saying it’s irrelevant that federal agencies targeted this person because local PD fired the shot?
- ratsmack 4y agoI suspect there are many more that we'll never hear about. The three letter agencies have the expertise and manpower to make anyone's death appear accidental or from natural causes.
- ncmncm 4y agoThere was the recent Rolling Stone reporter whose car was jimmied to stick the throttle at maximum, killing him in an "accident". No investigation. Nobody will be prosecuted for that.
- makeitdouble 4y ago> "Never charge someone more money than it costs to kill you." This is so clever, while being completely impractical when dealing with governing entities. Depending on where you live, pricing a service for your local police could become a very difficult exercise.
- dang 4y agoRelated: My Summer of Snowden - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23221517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23221517 - May 2020 (18 comments)
- bostonsre 4y agoI wonder what Snowden thinks of having to live in Russia now with the war in Ukraine. It must be a little awkward.
- farias0 4y agoWhy? He used to work for the American government for god's sake
- bostonsre 4y agoI'm biased but I think Russia's invasion and the way they are slaughtering civilians is a lot worse than the missteps that caused Snowden to disclose American secrets. Russia is also spiraling into an incredibly authoritarian police state that is much worse than what he was trying to prevent in America.
- farias0 4y agoI'm not talking about the NSA spying on American citizens. I'm talking about America slaughtering civilians in half of the middle east.
- mhh__ 4y agoDidn't he basically say "OK I was wrong, I'm gonna shut up" over the war?
- farias0 4y agoThat was because he had said he doubted Russia would invade Ukraine. I doubt he feels differently about seeking asylum, considering the alternative.
- soraminazuki 4y agoI imagine it's awful considering that it wasn't his choice to stay there. He got stranded there in transit because his passport was revoked.
- 4y ago
- photochemsyn 4y agoShouldn't the title be "Espionage or Whistleblowing?" Journalism would just be reporting on the events. For example, Daniel Ellsberg, leaking Pentagon Papers - basically everyone now agrees that was legitimate whistleblowing as it proved leading government figures were lying through their teeth to the American public about the reality on the ground in Vietnam. In contrast, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen were CIA and FBI employees who sold all kinds of secrets to the Soviet Union for several decades - pretty sure we can safely call that espionage. So Edward Snowden... proved the likes of James Clapper were lying through their teeth to Congress about mass warrantless collection of the private communications of American citizens. Hmmm... is it whistleblowing or espionage? Gosh what a tough question.
- boomboomsubban 4y agoThe story is about whether Gellman was a spy like many in the intelligence community including Clapper claim he is. It's about his works with Snowden's documents, not Snowden himself.
- sha256sum 4y agoWell if you’re going to post three-letter-agency FUD at least include some links to backup your claims?
- boomboomsubban 4y agoHuh? The article discusses his conversations with several high ranking members of the intelligence community. And their programs monitoring the press and their lengthy classified dossier on the author. For example >Mueller cross-examined me: Were the NSA documents not lawfully classified? Were they not stolen? Did I not publish them anyway?
- sha256sum 4y agoI misunderstood the context, thank you.
- boomboomsubban 4y agoI had never heard the bin Laden satellite phone claim, but it stinks so much of intelligence agency bullshit. It blames the press for what is unquestionably their failure in the run up to 9/11, and it's central claim isn't even true. Yet it's become a staple of their rhetoric.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- harry8 4y ago"SINCE I MET EDWARD SNOWDEN, I’VE NEVER STOPPED WATCHING MY BACK" That is the title of the article when I click the link. (Caps and all came through in copy-paste). Where is this "Espionage or Journalism" coming from? Are there different titles shown to different viewers?
- boomboomsubban 4y agoThe page title is "Espionage or Journalism..."
- wnevets 4y agoIf Snowden's and Greenwald's twitter accounts during the lead up (and since) to Russia's invasion of Ukraine hasn't answered that question for you, what proof could possibly exist that would convince you that they're puppets for Putin?
- FFRefresh 4y agoI'm not even sure what 'puppets for Putin' means? Or puppets for anything would really mean. Are they having zoom chats with Putin, and he's telling them what to tweet/say, and then they are doing exactly as he directs? Or is there a different arrangement? I'm assuming that being critical of the US military & security complex is your evidence of being a puppet for Putin? Since Putin also is critical of the US military & security complex, therefore criticizing the US = puppeting for Putin? If I have this wrong, please do correct me.
- wnevets 4y ago> Are they having zoom chats with Putin, and he's telling them what to tweet/say, and then they are doing exactly as he directs? would that be enough to convince you?
- FFRefresh 4y agoYes, that would be, as that would align with my fuzzy idea of someone being a 'puppet' for someone else. To repeat my question one last time of how you determine the 'Putin puppetness' of someone: > I'm assuming that being critical of the US military & security complex is your evidence of being a puppet for Putin? Since Putin also is critical of the US military & security complex, therefore criticizing the US = puppeting for Putin? If I have this wrong, please do correct me.
- wnevets 4y ago
- VictorPath 4y ago
- paulpauper 4y agoHe divulged some stuff that was of little consequence except giving Greenwald a career. The government simply responded by changing things up. So now you have a bunch of leaked stuff that is dated. Whistleblowers never seem that effective. either they are too late, or the stuff revealed is not that important, or nothing happens/changes. IF a whistleblower reveals a corporate fraud, for example, the revelation of the fraud will hurt shareholders. The ideal solution is to tell the shareholders before the info is public without impacting the stock price, so investors do not lose money, which is not possible. Someone has to lose. Justice may be served but shareholders still lose.
- BLKNSLVR 4y agoThis paragraph is quite interesting: Years later Richard Ledgett, who oversaw the NSA’s media-leaks task force and went on to become the agency’s deputy director, told me matter-of-factly to assume that my defenses had been breached. “My take is, whatever you guys had was pretty immediately in the hands of any foreign intelligence service that wanted it,” he said, “whether it was Russians, Chinese, French, the Israelis, the Brits. Between you, Poitras, and Greenwald, pretty sure you guys can’t stand up to a full-fledged nation-state attempt to exploit your IT. To include not just remote stuff, but hands-on, sneak-into-your-house-at-night kind of stuff. That’s my guess.” Because I’d been one of Snowden’s principal interlocutors, Ledgett told me he was sure there was “a nice dossier” on me in both Russia and China. It comes off to me as fear mongering and an attempt to dissuade any future involvement with such sensitive materials. An understandable approach from someone with the specified role. However, it just sounds so defeatist given how much of the article up to that point had detailed the layers of effort that had gone into avoiding exactly that. It also means that the NSA is capable of that as well: they've got it before you even realise what it is that you've got. Any of James Clapper's words must be filtered through his laser-focused tunnel vision; black and white, good and bad, scorched earth for middle ground. ie. discard it, but be aware that's how those people view the world, and therefore that's what you'll be up against if you step into the ring. Zealots. Cattle to be protected by the Dogs from the Wolves, and into those three categories fit all. I don't like it much, and find it difficult to relate to, but they couldn't do the important stuff that they do if they didn't have that attitude. But that's exactly why "congress", or whoever the appropriate leash-holders are, need to yoink on the leash every now and then, rather than letting it out for two straight decades.
- ncmncm 4y ago> It comes off to me as fear mongering As much as I think it was important to get out what they published, he is right on that detail: Greenwald and Poitras, at least, were and remain wholly unqualified to keep anything under wraps. They surely did their best, as well as they understood what they were even trying to do.
- kkfx 4y agoAny country sooner or later needs some black ops, reveling them in such cases is more espionage than journalism BUT when those ops are against country principles AND Citizens interests for the sake of a small élite than it's not espionage, it's journalism and those who try cover and crush such activities are guilty of high treason, embezzlement, in the Snowden cases also crimes against humanity, torture, massacres etc. That happen tough only if the government is from an establish Democracy, if the democracy is just formal, not substantial, if citizens accept that instead of impose their sovereignty, that it does not happen.