5 ms·

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's drippi

by pydry 5y ago

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

nikanj 5y ago
Counterpoint: it’s easy to support abolishing the police, when a clogged milk foamer is the biggest threat to your personal safety. Live in a wonderful sheltered community, say ”I don’t see why we would need law enforcement”
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  While it is true that there are people who actually do propose completely defunding police activity or abolishing the police, they are a tiny minority of those who took part in protests about police behavior towards non-white communities. It's so easy to make cheap digs about that handful of people instead of actually tackle the issues that this misnamed movement was/is really about. If it had actually been called "Redirect substantive parts of the funding currently going to the police to provide alternate mechanisms to address a variety of situations and crises", would you still find it appropriate to make jabs about the situation of some of those who supported it?
  - Taywee 5y ago
    > If it had actually been called "Redirect substantive parts of the funding currently going to the police to provide alternate mechanisms to address a variety of situations and crises", would you still find it appropriate to make jabs about the situation of some of those who supported it? No, because that's a rational and reasonable statement, where "defund the police" grabs attention, but is ultimately divisive and alienating. Like so many popular talking points, it's a complete failure of marketing and communication, and everybody who says it ends up having to redefine or explain it on a constant basis because on the surface it sounds completely irrational. Maybe it could have been more successful if the name actually reflected the goal. As-is, the supporters either actually believe in abolishing the police (which was also called for), or they are saying something they don't actually mean in a literal sense because it grabs more attention. The detractors in turn are only arguing with what a minority of the supporters actually even want, because we've grown so unconcerned as a society with actually conveying our points and getting people on our side, and more concerned with simply being noticed.
  - josephg 5y ago
    I hear what you're saying, but words matter. I can never support a slogan I explicitly disagree with. There's plenty of better slogans out there. I'd support "end police violence" or "stop killer cops" or something. Thats certainly much more catchy than the full slogan right now, which seems to be "Defund the police, but we don't really want to do that, even though some people in our movement actually do want that, but they're a minority - we swear. But we want political power anyway and it'll be fine - you can trust us". You can tell its a bad slogan because of how much oxygen gets spent explaining it. (Eg, right here)
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      "End Police Violence" has been a slogan in fact. It didn't really do much, precisely because not enough people who consider themselves unaffected by the risk of police violence were drawn in by it. By contrast "Defund the Police" definitely generated a "say what?" response from just about everyone, whether you agreed with it or not. As for the political power thing ... given the difficulty that existing politicians and political bodies have in exerting control over police authority, the idea that any new group would somehow be able to actually accomplish anything remotely close to abolition is crazy. Look at what happened in Minneapolis as an illustrative example: probably the closest to "actual abolition", and it just fizzled out completely.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        What you heard as a “say what?” was a politely phrased “you guys haven’t thought this through” in a lot of cases. “Think different”, “Think outside the bun”, “Just Do It” are good “say what?” examples. I don’t think “Defund the Police” accomplished the goal to make curious and enlist fence-sitters to the cause and instead likely pushed more people towards supporting their police departments.
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      This sounds very much like the critiques I heard of “black lives matter”. Wait, are you saying white lives don’t matter? Where do these slogans come from? Are they designed by conservatives to make liberals look bad?
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Ah, "latte-sipping liberal." edit: There's something correct here, because if you want to look for people who supported defund, they were probably working in food service, making you coffee.
- HomeGear 5y ago
  “Defund the Police” was not an attempt at abolishing police. However, I do understand there are outlets that positioned it as such to gain emotional investment. The idea was to reallocate some of the police budget to mental health experts. The idea behind that idea is that we’d had better outcomes if mental health experts helped those having a breakdown (suicide attempt, etc) than armed police.
seibelj 5y ago
Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  "Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working." Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all. It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.
  - ryan93 5y ago
    They are an attribute of 100% of modern countries.
  - InTheArena 5y ago
    This is the flip side of the “take trump seriously, not literally” argument that went around trying to normalize him in the last election. There are people who absolutely Believe that any police force is a slave enforcement force (or derived from one) and a tool of white tool to subjugate others. To them it must be eradicated.
    - jayd16 5y ago
      In both cases, that's easily solved by actually considering the content of popular proposals instead of imagining what the proposals _might_ be.
    - mrwh 5y ago
      (Off-topic, but...) I recall an interview on KQED with an activist who absolutely was proposing to get rid of the entire police and carceral system. When asked how they would deal with, say, a murderer, their response was a) there'd be fewer murderers and b) there would be meditation between the murderer and the victim's family. I really wish the interviewer had asked, what happens if the victim doesn't have a family? Does this mean that rich murderers can pay their way out of any crime? Presumably it would! It was fascinating, partly because what was being described is a premodern world, in which crime is a purely personal matter and not the business of the state. It's a world of vendettas, in which the powerful operate with true impunity. I don't think the partisans of _really_ defunding the police appreciate this. (Note, I have a lot of sympathy with the idea that the police are doing too much, especially around mental health crises, and some funding could usefully be diverted, etc etc.)
BurningFrog 5y ago
I'm 100% sure you're not part of such a community. Neither am I, of course :) When polled, poor black people want more policing, despite also agreeing with much of the defunder critique. Knowing both options, they prefer flawed policing to being ruled by criminal gangs.
- pydry 5y ago
  Im not American. The Americans I do know who really hate defund are the very definition of latte swilling liberals complaining about crime going up in their nice suburbs in SF, Portland and Seattle while... complaining bitterly about rich white liberals. The one supporter I do know lives a few blocks from George Floyd although the slogan seems to mean something different to her (transfer funds and responsibilities for mental health to social service departments).
  - softcactus 5y ago
    That's what most people mean when they say "defund". The problem is that America has an issue with being reactive instead of proactive. Instead of treating drugs and crime as an economics issue and getting ahead of it with social policies, we react to it after the fact and criminalize everything and pay for a standing army with zero accountability. Creating an arms race between gangs and police, with the average citizen paying twice-- once with their taxes and again with their freedoms.
    - BurningFrog 5y ago
      At least it's clear what Republicans mean by "Defund Planned Parenthood". If you have to keep explaining "when I say X, I really mean Y", you should maybe stop saying X.
      - softcactus 5y ago
        "Reallocate Police Budgets" doesn't have the same staying power.
- 5y ago
s1artibartfast 5y ago
Defund the police blew up because it was a simple sounding solution that outsiders could support while they didn't have to deal with the consequences. Actual members of impoverished and minority communities never supported it, they wanted more policing to keep their neighborhoods safe. The base of support was privileged members outside of those communities.
throwaway894345 5y ago
You’re defending one luxury belief (“defund the police”) with another (“the black experience with police is exclusively one of victimhood”). Notably, your “backlash” includes 81% of black Americans according to Gallup.
fundad 5y ago
Agreed, Like any social program there is a constituency that supports policing. They experience far less violence and use the service an outsized amount.

by pydry 5y ago

nikanj 5y ago

Counterpoint: it’s easy to support abolishing the police, when a clogged milk foamer is the biggest threat to your personal safety. Live in a wonderful sheltered community, say ”I don’t see why we would need law enforcement”

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
While it is true that there are people who actually do propose completely defunding police activity or abolishing the police, they are a tiny minority of those who took part in protests about police behavior towards non-white communities. It's so easy to make cheap digs about that handful of people instead of actually tackle the issues that this misnamed movement was/is really about. If it had actually been called "Redirect substantive parts of the funding currently going to the police to provide alternate mechanisms to address a variety of situations and crises", would you still find it appropriate to make jabs about the situation of some of those who supported it?
- Taywee 5y ago
  > If it had actually been called "Redirect substantive parts of the funding currently going to the police to provide alternate mechanisms to address a variety of situations and crises", would you still find it appropriate to make jabs about the situation of some of those who supported it? No, because that's a rational and reasonable statement, where "defund the police" grabs attention, but is ultimately divisive and alienating. Like so many popular talking points, it's a complete failure of marketing and communication, and everybody who says it ends up having to redefine or explain it on a constant basis because on the surface it sounds completely irrational. Maybe it could have been more successful if the name actually reflected the goal. As-is, the supporters either actually believe in abolishing the police (which was also called for), or they are saying something they don't actually mean in a literal sense because it grabs more attention. The detractors in turn are only arguing with what a minority of the supporters actually even want, because we've grown so unconcerned as a society with actually conveying our points and getting people on our side, and more concerned with simply being noticed.
- josephg 5y ago
  I hear what you're saying, but words matter. I can never support a slogan I explicitly disagree with. There's plenty of better slogans out there. I'd support "end police violence" or "stop killer cops" or something. Thats certainly much more catchy than the full slogan right now, which seems to be "Defund the police, but we don't really want to do that, even though some people in our movement actually do want that, but they're a minority - we swear. But we want political power anyway and it'll be fine - you can trust us". You can tell its a bad slogan because of how much oxygen gets spent explaining it. (Eg, right here)
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    "End Police Violence" has been a slogan in fact. It didn't really do much, precisely because not enough people who consider themselves unaffected by the risk of police violence were drawn in by it. By contrast "Defund the Police" definitely generated a "say what?" response from just about everyone, whether you agreed with it or not. As for the political power thing ... given the difficulty that existing politicians and political bodies have in exerting control over police authority, the idea that any new group would somehow be able to actually accomplish anything remotely close to abolition is crazy. Look at what happened in Minneapolis as an illustrative example: probably the closest to "actual abolition", and it just fizzled out completely.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      What you heard as a “say what?” was a politely phrased “you guys haven’t thought this through” in a lot of cases. “Think different”, “Think outside the bun”, “Just Do It” are good “say what?” examples. I don’t think “Defund the Police” accomplished the goal to make curious and enlist fence-sitters to the cause and instead likely pushed more people towards supporting their police departments.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    This sounds very much like the critiques I heard of “black lives matter”. Wait, are you saying white lives don’t matter? Where do these slogans come from? Are they designed by conservatives to make liberals look bad?
pessimizer 5y ago
Ah, "latte-sipping liberal." edit: There's something correct here, because if you want to look for people who supported defund, they were probably working in food service, making you coffee.
HomeGear 5y ago
“Defund the Police” was not an attempt at abolishing police. However, I do understand there are outlets that positioned it as such to gain emotional investment. The idea was to reallocate some of the police budget to mental health experts. The idea behind that idea is that we’d had better outcomes if mental health experts helped those having a breakdown (suicide attempt, etc) than armed police.

seibelj 5y ago

Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.

cmrdporcupine 5y ago
"Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working." Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all. It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.
- ryan93 5y ago
  They are an attribute of 100% of modern countries.
- InTheArena 5y ago
  This is the flip side of the “take trump seriously, not literally” argument that went around trying to normalize him in the last election. There are people who absolutely Believe that any police force is a slave enforcement force (or derived from one) and a tool of white tool to subjugate others. To them it must be eradicated.
  - jayd16 5y ago
    In both cases, that's easily solved by actually considering the content of popular proposals instead of imagining what the proposals _might_ be.
  - mrwh 5y ago
    (Off-topic, but...) I recall an interview on KQED with an activist who absolutely was proposing to get rid of the entire police and carceral system. When asked how they would deal with, say, a murderer, their response was a) there'd be fewer murderers and b) there would be meditation between the murderer and the victim's family. I really wish the interviewer had asked, what happens if the victim doesn't have a family? Does this mean that rich murderers can pay their way out of any crime? Presumably it would! It was fascinating, partly because what was being described is a premodern world, in which crime is a purely personal matter and not the business of the state. It's a world of vendettas, in which the powerful operate with true impunity. I don't think the partisans of _really_ defunding the police appreciate this. (Note, I have a lot of sympathy with the idea that the police are doing too much, especially around mental health crises, and some funding could usefully be diverted, etc etc.)

BurningFrog 5y ago

I'm 100% sure you're not part of such a community. Neither am I, of course :) When polled, poor black people want more policing, despite also agreeing with much of the defunder critique. Knowing both options, they prefer flawed policing to being ruled by criminal gangs.

pydry 5y ago
Im not American. The Americans I do know who really hate defund are the very definition of latte swilling liberals complaining about crime going up in their nice suburbs in SF, Portland and Seattle while... complaining bitterly about rich white liberals. The one supporter I do know lives a few blocks from George Floyd although the slogan seems to mean something different to her (transfer funds and responsibilities for mental health to social service departments).
- softcactus 5y ago
  That's what most people mean when they say "defund". The problem is that America has an issue with being reactive instead of proactive. Instead of treating drugs and crime as an economics issue and getting ahead of it with social policies, we react to it after the fact and criminalize everything and pay for a standing army with zero accountability. Creating an arms race between gangs and police, with the average citizen paying twice-- once with their taxes and again with their freedoms.
  - BurningFrog 5y ago
    At least it's clear what Republicans mean by "Defund Planned Parenthood". If you have to keep explaining "when I say X, I really mean Y", you should maybe stop saying X.
    - softcactus 5y ago
      "Reallocate Police Budgets" doesn't have the same staying power.
5y ago

s1artibartfast 5y ago

Defund the police blew up because it was a simple sounding solution that outsiders could support while they didn't have to deal with the consequences. Actual members of impoverished and minority communities never supported it, they wanted more policing to keep their neighborhoods safe. The base of support was privileged members outside of those communities.

throwaway894345 5y ago

You’re defending one luxury belief (“defund the police”) with another (“the black experience with police is exclusively one of victimhood”). Notably, your “backlash” includes 81% of black Americans according to Gallup.

fundad 5y ago

Agreed, Like any social program there is a constituency that supports policing. They experience far less violence and use the service an outsized amount.