9 ms·

The one time North Vietnam’s MiGs attacked U.S. navy warships

104 points by vinnyglennon 5y ago

wheelerof4te 5y ago
- ethanbond 5y ago
  One thing was trying to shore up France’s SE Asia colonies because Charles de Gaulle had directly threatened that France would have to fall into the USSRs orbit if it lost them.
  - wheelerof4te 5y ago
    - ethanbond 5y ago
      That’s… an interpretation I suppose.
    - krastanov 5y ago
      I do not think your combative tone is necessary. Pretty much everyone slightly on the liberal spectrum and plenty of conservative people would agree that what America did in Vietnam was immoral or a blunder or an embarrassment or a betrayal of the ideals of freedom and democracy.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - refurb 5y ago
      The same guy in France already at war to reclaim their lost colonies? Huh?
  - dekervin 5y ago
    Wow ! Not even a hundred years has passed and we already have those far fetched self-serving delusions posing as historical analysis ? How about... cynically bleed out communists willingness to fight in one place, to deter any other place in south east asia to even think about charting an independant course ? It's as good as any other explanation IMHO.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Delusions? It’s right in the Pentagon Papers. France had no ability to reclaim its former colonies after WW2. They want Indochina back as a colony (money and prestige) and the US wanted to stop communist expansion there and create an alliance to stop communism in Western Europe. France let it be known without support in Indochina it may not be very helpful in Western Europe. The US did not support Europe taking back their pre-WW2 colonies, but like most political decisions, decided that containing communism was of greater importance. As a result, the US was bankrolling most of France's attempt to get their Indochina colony back in the 1950's. By the time France left in '54, the US was already deeply involved and committed. Nothing new here.
    - wheelerof4te 5y ago
      That is an even lamer excuse. "We attacked them because they are the filthy communists!" So what?! They are the communists, not you. If it works for them, does it need to work for you? If capitalism works for the US, does it have to work for Vietnam or any other country? I believe that the true reason for war was refusal of the US to hand over the gold to France and other countries which foolishly kept some of their gold in the US. Of course, the gold was either spent or confiscated by US. So, the US needed to fabricate a huge spending operation to justify the fiat expansion of the USD, leading ultimately to the creation of the petrodollar system which replaced the old gold system. And what better spending operation than a war? Even better, a war thousands of miles away from home, against far weaker enemy forces. Nevertheless, those forces prevailed in the end. But the true winner still, was the US. It had unshackled itself from the world's gold-backed financial system and ushered in a new era of dominance.
SapporoChris 5y ago
Being raised USA centric and mostly hearing the dogma, I always appreciate hearing stories from the other side. The difference of opinion, even when I don't agree, is refreshing.
- Taniwha 5y ago
  Visited Hanoi with our (just) adult kids a few years ago, we chose to mostly avoid American War (that's what they call it) era stuff - but one day we split up and went to an excellent art museum, the kids ended up at a museum to the evils of the French administration where people had been tortured and executed .... turned out it was what my generation knew as the "Hanoi Hilton" (we had been deliberately avoiding it), apparently it had little if any mention of the US prisoners there (the kids didn't notice anything) you sort of can't decry that place without also remembering that its previous incarnation was what Ho Chi Min was fighting against (and he was very much a freedom fighter before he became a communist)
  - refurb 5y ago
    The Hanoi Hilton has been "sanitized" significantly over the years, as have the war museums. The War Remnants Museum in HCMC is a must see for people interested in the history. But it went through several versions as Vietnam sought to restore relations with the US. It was originally called "Exhibition House for US and Puppet Crimes" in 1975, then changed to "Exhibition House for Crimes of War and Aggression" in 1990, then prior to US/Vietnam relationships normalization it was renamed as it is today. Plenty of the exhibits have had their language modified as well.
ilamont 5y ago
These small, risky, and ineffective raids (in the large scheme of things) have huge a psychological impact on the winners and losers if they are publicized. The Doolittle Raid (https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/world-war-ii/1942/halsey-doolittle-raid.html https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-...) was one such raid. The U.S. played it to the hilt. Japan couldn't ignore it or cover it up because it took place right over Tokyo. The Belgorod Raid (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/1/russia-alleges-ukrainian-helicopters-struck-belgorod-fuel-depot https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/1/russia-alleges-ukrai...) was a huge PR victory for Ukraine, showing its helicopters are capable of striking behind enemy lines. I'm not sure ordinary Russians were as awed, or even if they were made aware of what happened.
- twic 5y ago
  Operation Black Buck is also probably an example of this - Vulcan bombers flying a sixth of the way around the Earth, using a pyramid of tankers for refuelling, dropping some bombs ineffectively on an Argentinian-held airport, then flying back: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
  - sofixa 5y ago
    The UK were so lucky with the Falklands war.. had the Argentines waited a year 3/4 of the UK military hardware used to retake the islands ( aircraft carriers, bombers, etc.) would have been decommissioned due cost cutting measures.
    - the_af 5y ago
      Realistically, it was impossible for us (Argentines) to hold by military force to the islands. I'm sure all sort of things could have gone worse for the UK, but we were a military insignificant[0] country (ruled by an incompetent dictatorship) against a military power allied to the US. [0] no disrespect meant to our soldiers, who did what they could in a senseless war.
the_af 5y ago
When one studies the Vietnam War -- leaving for a moment the very controversial motivations for the war -- it's interesting to see how far it differs from pop culture narratives (i.e. movies and videogames). One surprising thing, for example, is how much the VC and later PAVN controlled the initiative. With a few exceptions (which Hollywood tends to highlight) the initiative, when to engage and how, was Vietnamese, not American. No surprise they won. Another remarkable thing is how well the Vietnamese air force did against the Americans. They even had fighter aces and scored a lot of air-to-air kills!
- leephillips 5y ago
  I’m not an expert but have read a half dozen or so books about the war. The NV army was far more disciplined than the US or SV army, for one thing. For another, they had a brilliant strategist for a general (Giáp), while US strategy was being devised by, frankly, an incompetent general and Secretary of Defense. Also, the CIA supplied terrible intelligence.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Giap had been pushed aside by the time the US had any substantial number of US troops on the ground (~1965). He was briefly pulled back in in the early 1970's, but otherwise the strategy was driven by Le Duan at that point. But suffice to say, the US lost because it took a "limited war" approach, while the North Vietnam were committed to "total war".
    - nickff 5y ago
      I agree with this comment. The Americans would try to win over the populace by giving away rice and other supplies, but the NV would simply destroy collaborators’ villages and murder their families. Bribes are nice, but extortion is much more effective.
      - jeromegv 5y ago
        A bit simplistic. North Vietnamese we’re after all.. Vietnamese. It was natural for many in the south to support fellow countrymen against foreign invasion. It was first the Chinese, then the French and now the Americans. They were just done having foreign power take over their country. And don’t tell me the Americans didn’t do a lot of those things you just named. Wasn’t just “rice”.
smitty1e 5y ago
Back at the end of the Cold War, as a strapping lad on an Aegis cruiser, we used to moor across the pier from USS Long Beach[1]. She was rumored to have the longest-range kill on record, off the coast of Vietnam[2] using Talos[3]. The reference states ~65 nautical miles (minutes of latitude) or ~75 miles. I heard >100, which may or may not be true (since we obfuscate performance parameters pretty much everywhere). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Long_Beach_(CGN-9) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Long_Beach_(CGN-9) [2] https://www.navysite.de/cg/cgn9.htm https://www.navysite.de/cg/cgn9.htm [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-8_Talos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-8_Talos
- themodelplumber 5y ago
  That's a pretty neat looking missile with the four nose antennas. It was also interesting, given how modern it looked to me, to read that > Talos was the end product of Operation Bumblebee, the Navy's 16-year surface-to-air missile development program for protection against guided anti-ship missiles like Henschel Hs 293 glide bombs, Fritz X, and kamikaze aircraft.[1] So it was designed based on WWII concerns...I hadn't read about the HS 293 in quite a long time, and didn't expect to see a ramjet missile developed in response...
Razengan 5y ago
Speaking of Vietnam, let us not forget the war crimes committed by the USA, such as the horrendous Mỹ Lai Massacre and the attempts to cover it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre
- refurb 5y ago
  Nor the war crimes committed by the other side, including the ~3,000 civilians killed during the occupation of Hue during the Tet Offensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF
- qiskit 5y ago
  The entire war was a war crime. Over 4 million innocent vietnamese died in the war for vietnamese indepedence. Or rather, over 4 million innocent vietnamese died because we didn't want them to have their freedom. We should really tear down the vietnam war memorial and replace it with a memorial for the innocent vietnamese who were murdered. But that's too much to ask for such an immoral and evil nation. But then again, it's not the first country we tried to stop from gaining their independence. We murdered a bunch of filipinos to prevent the philippines from gaining their independence.
  - kapuasuite 5y ago
    South Vietnam was already an independent nation…
    - qiskit 5y ago
      South Vietnam was never an independent nation. After vietnam won their independence from france, we stepped in and took over the southern part of vietnam fromfrance. South Vietnam was created by the US and won its independence when the south vietnamese viet cong and the north vietnamese army liberated south vietnam from the US.
- Razengan 5y ago
  Of course someone would downvote this. Those lives didn’t matter, right?
trhway 5y ago
2x250kg bombs and relatively minor damage. The modern anti-ship missiles seems to have couple things going for them - hitting the ship at their terminal velocity they explode once they got inside the ship, and they naturally hit more closer toward the center/bulk of the ship. The 1982 Sheffield hit as well as the recent Moskva hit - both with sub 250kg warheads - illustrate that. Moskva burning https://t.me/milinfolive/81443 https://t.me/milinfolive/81443, https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/04/18/photos-appear-to-show-moskva-missile-cruiser-burning-a77388 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/04/18/photos-appear-to-s...
- monocasa 5y ago
  I think the Moskva is also built for a naval doctrine that doesn't make sense for Russia anymore. Just about any ordance will take out a missile cruiser like that because the cruise missiles in the launch tubes will detonate and finish your work for you. Missile cruisers being the back bone of your fleet only make sense when you can trade ship for ship and win out on industrial capacity to build ships. That doesn't really apply to Russia, but the USSR could have convinced itself in the 70s that it applied to them.
  - trhway 5y ago
    on the photo it looks like the cruise missiles didn't detonate on Moskva - all 4 rows of the tubes on that left side are visible through the smoke and intact. The Moskva doctrine was based on not being hit :) as it was supposedly the ship with a very capable air-defense. In particular it was it's role to provide "umbrella" air defense to that assault fleet group near Odessa. The air defense based on S-300 was outdated though (and they decided to not spend money on it's upgrade during the most recent Moskva modernization few years ago) and while in theory capable of dealing with those anti-ship missiles, it faced a new type of target - drone - which was harassing the fleet and taking attention away before these 2 missiles came in.
    - daniel-cussen 5y ago
      How do you have this much visibility on the Russian Navy?
ncann 5y ago
TIL one of the two pilots in this incident is named Nguyen Van Bay, yet is not the same Nguyen Van Bay who is a famous jet fighter ace for the Vietnam People's Air Force.
- freddie_mercury 5y ago
  Nguyen Van Bay is just a kind of nickname that means "he's the seventh son". Especially back in those days of large families it isn't massively surprising that there'd be another seventh son in the airforce. Vietnamese Wikipedia says he actually went by the nickname Bay A (literally 7-A) in the air force, presumably because of the other guy also nicknamed Bay. The Nguyen family name is obviously super common. Van is a fairly common middle name. Especially in the south of Vietnam it was somewhat common, especially back then to just call people by their birth order. "Aunt Eight", "Uncle Two", "Sister Three", etc. His actual name was Nguyen Van Hoa.

104 points by vinnyglennon 5y ago

ethanbond 5y ago
One thing was trying to shore up France’s SE Asia colonies because Charles de Gaulle had directly threatened that France would have to fall into the USSRs orbit if it lost them.
- wheelerof4te 5y ago
  - ethanbond 5y ago
    That’s… an interpretation I suppose.
  - krastanov 5y ago
    I do not think your combative tone is necessary. Pretty much everyone slightly on the liberal spectrum and plenty of conservative people would agree that what America did in Vietnam was immoral or a blunder or an embarrassment or a betrayal of the ideals of freedom and democracy.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - refurb 5y ago
    The same guy in France already at war to reclaim their lost colonies? Huh?
- dekervin 5y ago
  Wow ! Not even a hundred years has passed and we already have those far fetched self-serving delusions posing as historical analysis ? How about... cynically bleed out communists willingness to fight in one place, to deter any other place in south east asia to even think about charting an independant course ? It's as good as any other explanation IMHO.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Delusions? It’s right in the Pentagon Papers. France had no ability to reclaim its former colonies after WW2. They want Indochina back as a colony (money and prestige) and the US wanted to stop communist expansion there and create an alliance to stop communism in Western Europe. France let it be known without support in Indochina it may not be very helpful in Western Europe. The US did not support Europe taking back their pre-WW2 colonies, but like most political decisions, decided that containing communism was of greater importance. As a result, the US was bankrolling most of France's attempt to get their Indochina colony back in the 1950's. By the time France left in '54, the US was already deeply involved and committed. Nothing new here.
  - wheelerof4te 5y ago
    That is an even lamer excuse. "We attacked them because they are the filthy communists!" So what?! They are the communists, not you. If it works for them, does it need to work for you? If capitalism works for the US, does it have to work for Vietnam or any other country? I believe that the true reason for war was refusal of the US to hand over the gold to France and other countries which foolishly kept some of their gold in the US. Of course, the gold was either spent or confiscated by US. So, the US needed to fabricate a huge spending operation to justify the fiat expansion of the USD, leading ultimately to the creation of the petrodollar system which replaced the old gold system. And what better spending operation than a war? Even better, a war thousands of miles away from home, against far weaker enemy forces. Nevertheless, those forces prevailed in the end. But the true winner still, was the US. It had unshackled itself from the world's gold-backed financial system and ushered in a new era of dominance.

Being raised USA centric and mostly hearing the dogma, I always appreciate hearing stories from the other side. The difference of opinion, even when I don't agree, is refreshing.

Taniwha 5y ago
Visited Hanoi with our (just) adult kids a few years ago, we chose to mostly avoid American War (that's what they call it) era stuff - but one day we split up and went to an excellent art museum, the kids ended up at a museum to the evils of the French administration where people had been tortured and executed .... turned out it was what my generation knew as the "Hanoi Hilton" (we had been deliberately avoiding it), apparently it had little if any mention of the US prisoners there (the kids didn't notice anything) you sort of can't decry that place without also remembering that its previous incarnation was what Ho Chi Min was fighting against (and he was very much a freedom fighter before he became a communist)
- refurb 5y ago
  The Hanoi Hilton has been "sanitized" significantly over the years, as have the war museums. The War Remnants Museum in HCMC is a must see for people interested in the history. But it went through several versions as Vietnam sought to restore relations with the US. It was originally called "Exhibition House for US and Puppet Crimes" in 1975, then changed to "Exhibition House for Crimes of War and Aggression" in 1990, then prior to US/Vietnam relationships normalization it was renamed as it is today. Plenty of the exhibits have had their language modified as well.

ilamont 5y ago

These small, risky, and ineffective raids (in the large scheme of things) have huge a psychological impact on the winners and losers if they are publicized. The Doolittle Raid (https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/world-war-ii/1942/halsey-doolittle-raid.html https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-...) was one such raid. The U.S. played it to the hilt. Japan couldn't ignore it or cover it up because it took place right over Tokyo. The Belgorod Raid (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/1/russia-alleges-ukrainian-helicopters-struck-belgorod-fuel-depot https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/1/russia-alleges-ukrai...) was a huge PR victory for Ukraine, showing its helicopters are capable of striking behind enemy lines. I'm not sure ordinary Russians were as awed, or even if they were made aware of what happened.

twic 5y ago
Operation Black Buck is also probably an example of this - Vulcan bombers flying a sixth of the way around the Earth, using a pyramid of tankers for refuelling, dropping some bombs ineffectively on an Argentinian-held airport, then flying back: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
- sofixa 5y ago
  The UK were so lucky with the Falklands war.. had the Argentines waited a year 3/4 of the UK military hardware used to retake the islands ( aircraft carriers, bombers, etc.) would have been decommissioned due cost cutting measures.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Realistically, it was impossible for us (Argentines) to hold by military force to the islands. I'm sure all sort of things could have gone worse for the UK, but we were a military insignificant[0] country (ruled by an incompetent dictatorship) against a military power allied to the US. [0] no disrespect meant to our soldiers, who did what they could in a senseless war.

the_af 5y ago

When one studies the Vietnam War -- leaving for a moment the very controversial motivations for the war -- it's interesting to see how far it differs from pop culture narratives (i.e. movies and videogames). One surprising thing, for example, is how much the VC and later PAVN controlled the initiative. With a few exceptions (which Hollywood tends to highlight) the initiative, when to engage and how, was Vietnamese, not American. No surprise they won. Another remarkable thing is how well the Vietnamese air force did against the Americans. They even had fighter aces and scored a lot of air-to-air kills!

leephillips 5y ago
I’m not an expert but have read a half dozen or so books about the war. The NV army was far more disciplined than the US or SV army, for one thing. For another, they had a brilliant strategist for a general (Giáp), while US strategy was being devised by, frankly, an incompetent general and Secretary of Defense. Also, the CIA supplied terrible intelligence.
- refurb 5y ago
  Giap had been pushed aside by the time the US had any substantial number of US troops on the ground (~1965). He was briefly pulled back in in the early 1970's, but otherwise the strategy was driven by Le Duan at that point. But suffice to say, the US lost because it took a "limited war" approach, while the North Vietnam were committed to "total war".
  - nickff 5y ago
    I agree with this comment. The Americans would try to win over the populace by giving away rice and other supplies, but the NV would simply destroy collaborators’ villages and murder their families. Bribes are nice, but extortion is much more effective.
    - jeromegv 5y ago
      A bit simplistic. North Vietnamese we’re after all.. Vietnamese. It was natural for many in the south to support fellow countrymen against foreign invasion. It was first the Chinese, then the French and now the Americans. They were just done having foreign power take over their country. And don’t tell me the Americans didn’t do a lot of those things you just named. Wasn’t just “rice”.

smitty1e 5y ago

Back at the end of the Cold War, as a strapping lad on an Aegis cruiser, we used to moor across the pier from USS Long Beach[1]. She was rumored to have the longest-range kill on record, off the coast of Vietnam[2] using Talos[3]. The reference states ~65 nautical miles (minutes of latitude) or ~75 miles. I heard >100, which may or may not be true (since we obfuscate performance parameters pretty much everywhere). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Long_Beach_(CGN-9) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Long_Beach_(CGN-9) [2] https://www.navysite.de/cg/cgn9.htm https://www.navysite.de/cg/cgn9.htm [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-8_Talos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-8_Talos

themodelplumber 5y ago
That's a pretty neat looking missile with the four nose antennas. It was also interesting, given how modern it looked to me, to read that > Talos was the end product of Operation Bumblebee, the Navy's 16-year surface-to-air missile development program for protection against guided anti-ship missiles like Henschel Hs 293 glide bombs, Fritz X, and kamikaze aircraft.[1] So it was designed based on WWII concerns...I hadn't read about the HS 293 in quite a long time, and didn't expect to see a ramjet missile developed in response...

Razengan 5y ago

Speaking of Vietnam, let us not forget the war crimes committed by the USA, such as the horrendous Mỹ Lai Massacre and the attempts to cover it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre

refurb 5y ago
Nor the war crimes committed by the other side, including the ~3,000 civilians killed during the occupation of Hue during the Tet Offensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF
qiskit 5y ago
The entire war was a war crime. Over 4 million innocent vietnamese died in the war for vietnamese indepedence. Or rather, over 4 million innocent vietnamese died because we didn't want them to have their freedom. We should really tear down the vietnam war memorial and replace it with a memorial for the innocent vietnamese who were murdered. But that's too much to ask for such an immoral and evil nation. But then again, it's not the first country we tried to stop from gaining their independence. We murdered a bunch of filipinos to prevent the philippines from gaining their independence.
- kapuasuite 5y ago
  South Vietnam was already an independent nation…
  - qiskit 5y ago
    South Vietnam was never an independent nation. After vietnam won their independence from france, we stepped in and took over the southern part of vietnam fromfrance. South Vietnam was created by the US and won its independence when the south vietnamese viet cong and the north vietnamese army liberated south vietnam from the US.
Razengan 5y ago
Of course someone would downvote this. Those lives didn’t matter, right?

trhway 5y ago

2x250kg bombs and relatively minor damage. The modern anti-ship missiles seems to have couple things going for them - hitting the ship at their terminal velocity they explode once they got inside the ship, and they naturally hit more closer toward the center/bulk of the ship. The 1982 Sheffield hit as well as the recent Moskva hit - both with sub 250kg warheads - illustrate that. Moskva burning https://t.me/milinfolive/81443 https://t.me/milinfolive/81443, https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/04/18/photos-appear-to-show-moskva-missile-cruiser-burning-a77388 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/04/18/photos-appear-to-s...

monocasa 5y ago
I think the Moskva is also built for a naval doctrine that doesn't make sense for Russia anymore. Just about any ordance will take out a missile cruiser like that because the cruise missiles in the launch tubes will detonate and finish your work for you. Missile cruisers being the back bone of your fleet only make sense when you can trade ship for ship and win out on industrial capacity to build ships. That doesn't really apply to Russia, but the USSR could have convinced itself in the 70s that it applied to them.
- trhway 5y ago
  on the photo it looks like the cruise missiles didn't detonate on Moskva - all 4 rows of the tubes on that left side are visible through the smoke and intact. The Moskva doctrine was based on not being hit :) as it was supposedly the ship with a very capable air-defense. In particular it was it's role to provide "umbrella" air defense to that assault fleet group near Odessa. The air defense based on S-300 was outdated though (and they decided to not spend money on it's upgrade during the most recent Moskva modernization few years ago) and while in theory capable of dealing with those anti-ship missiles, it faced a new type of target - drone - which was harassing the fleet and taking attention away before these 2 missiles came in.
  - daniel-cussen 5y ago
    How do you have this much visibility on the Russian Navy?

ncann 5y ago

TIL one of the two pilots in this incident is named Nguyen Van Bay, yet is not the same Nguyen Van Bay who is a famous jet fighter ace for the Vietnam People's Air Force.

freddie_mercury 5y ago
Nguyen Van Bay is just a kind of nickname that means "he's the seventh son". Especially back in those days of large families it isn't massively surprising that there'd be another seventh son in the airforce. Vietnamese Wikipedia says he actually went by the nickname Bay A (literally 7-A) in the air force, presumably because of the other guy also nicknamed Bay. The Nguyen family name is obviously super common. Van is a fairly common middle name. Especially in the south of Vietnam it was somewhat common, especially back then to just call people by their birth order. "Aunt Eight", "Uncle Two", "Sister Three", etc. His actual name was Nguyen Van Hoa.