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Blockchains are excellent for logging that uses trustable peer participation, distributed append, and tamper resistance. For example, each peer can add their ow

by jph 4y ago

Blockchains are excellent for logging that uses trustable peer participation, distributed append, and tamper resistance. For example, each peer can add their own chain links, and also see all the chain links added by other peers, and also be sure that the log hasn't been corrupted by any of the peers. Some examples IMHO are logs of participation (e.g. voting), agreements (e.g. contracts), exchange (e.g. payments), and auditing (e.g. compliance). A blockchain can be public or protected i.e. private just to the participants. A blockchain can store plain text information or access-controlled information i.e. encrypted information or links to sign in systems. All of these capabilities provide massive trust advantages over a traditional database as managed by a central administrative entity, which requires the participants must trust the central administrative entity to be truthful, unbiased, secure, and with sufficient high availability and disaster recoverability.

ak_111 4y ago
"Blockchains are excellent for logging with peer participation, distributed append, and tamper resistance. For example, each peer can add their own chain links, and also see all the chain links added by other peers, and also be sure that the log hasn't been corrupted by any of the peers." This sounds very close to a git repository, which Linus wrote using only SHA libraries.
- icelancer 4y ago
  It is. Except if you used SHA libraries for mission critical logging, it would be insecure by default, since it's demonstrably possible to force SHA-1 collisions. git is moving (slowly) to SHA-256, which is also the hashing function of Bitcoin.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ak_111 4y ago
  Edit: if you are saying blockchain allows non-tech people the benefit of something like a git repo to run there everyday business, then this is a view I sympathetic to but it is arguably failing in this aspect as well since there is no non-tech people using it.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  Except with git repositories there's no built-in consensus mechanism, and we have the potential for a double spend. Say we're assuming the git repo includes gpg signing and users can make commits attesting that they've sent some amount of their balance to another user. John makes a commit saying he sends his entire balance to Alice. John pushes that to a central repository, and Alice gives him her house in return. John then pushes another commit with an older date saying he actually sent his entire balance to Bob. Which commit does the network trust? Aside from that, there are also smart contracts which (to my knowledge) are the first example of code that can be run in an open distributed manner with verifiable source. It's pretty interesting stuff.
  - igorkraw 4y ago
    No it's not. If you run a trust based economy without clear property rights, this whole scenario doesn't exist. If you have property rights, you have a state to enforce them, so that state has a court, sues Alice (or Bob), sues John, the state punishes John, done. If you try to establish property rights without a state, then ans only then does it become interesting, but why would you do that? Establishing a democratic "state" is so simple and cheap that people do it all the time (associations, shareholder agreements), and in the end you need to physically enforce the property rights anyway, so why bother with the whole decentralised, anonymous rigamarole?
    - derangedHorse 4y ago
      Establishing a pure democracy is never easy and when you get the centralization of power that a representative democracy (or democratic republic) brings it can create incentive structures that don't represent the electing population. When you have the power to hide something as a political representative and the general population don't have the means to provide an attestation to whether something is true or not, it starts creating room for elected actors to work against the interest of the people in scenarios where they could reliably hide malpractice. The blockchain isn't converting democratic republics outright, but it does give more power to the people by allowing them to attach their unit of account to what is now considered to be an apolitical monetary system that can be participated in by anyone.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Some examples IMHO are logs of participation (e.g. voting), agreements (e.g. contracts), exchange (e.g. payments), and auditing (e.g. compliance). many of these things require privacy (and/or secrecy), which blockchain cannot guarantee (nor offer) a private blockchain is simply a slower centralized database > which requires the participants must trust the central administrative entity to be truthful, unbiased, secure, and with sufficient high availability and disaster recoverability. that is exactly how voting, agreements (e.g. contracts), exchange (e.g. payments), and auditing (e.g. compliance) work. You trust the regulator/intermediator/notary/government/bank etc.
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  > many of these things require privacy (and/or secrecy), which blockchain cannot guarantee (nor offer) Note that not everything needs to be public. One can (and in many cases should) save the transaction details in a private chain (or database for that matter) and publish only its signature publicly, so that any change can always be detected. But of course there still need to be the usual society safeguards present, otherwise no technical mean will solve anything.
mmcnl 4y ago
I understand what you are saying, but you cannot say they provide trust advantages as a factual claim. The trust model is _different_, not better. There's value in centralized trust as well.
specialist 4y ago
Yes and: tamper evident. > Some examples are logs of participation Yes and: Medical records. While working in healthcare IT, mid-2000s, our records would be used to show who knew what when. There was a general uneasiness that our source of truth was just database entries and log files. I had somehow heard about using rolling hashes in log files. As you well know, then if any entries had errors (bad code, tampering, whatever), we'd be more likely to spot them. I managed to implement a prototype, before our startup was acquihired and our products shutdown (sniff). Sadly, none of the new PHBs understood or were interested in all the cool tech we had created. Then some time later people started talking about slapping RFID and QR onto everything. Because hospitals are like a fight pit, with belligerents from different orgs and corps, coming and going, we thought to use a shared (tamper evident) audit log. aka blockchain. Sadly, that too didn't come to pass on our watch. Beyond shared audit logs -- stuff like PoW/PoS, currency, whatever -- doesn't made any sense to me. I eventually decided it's all grift, though I'd be happy to proven wrong.

by jph 4y ago

ak_111 4y ago

"Blockchains are excellent for logging with peer participation, distributed append, and tamper resistance. For example, each peer can add their own chain links, and also see all the chain links added by other peers, and also be sure that the log hasn't been corrupted by any of the peers." This sounds very close to a git repository, which Linus wrote using only SHA libraries.

icelancer 4y ago
It is. Except if you used SHA libraries for mission critical logging, it would be insecure by default, since it's demonstrably possible to force SHA-1 collisions. git is moving (slowly) to SHA-256, which is also the hashing function of Bitcoin.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ak_111 4y ago
Edit: if you are saying blockchain allows non-tech people the benefit of something like a git repo to run there everyday business, then this is a view I sympathetic to but it is arguably failing in this aspect as well since there is no non-tech people using it.
pcthrowaway 4y ago
Except with git repositories there's no built-in consensus mechanism, and we have the potential for a double spend. Say we're assuming the git repo includes gpg signing and users can make commits attesting that they've sent some amount of their balance to another user. John makes a commit saying he sends his entire balance to Alice. John pushes that to a central repository, and Alice gives him her house in return. John then pushes another commit with an older date saying he actually sent his entire balance to Bob. Which commit does the network trust? Aside from that, there are also smart contracts which (to my knowledge) are the first example of code that can be run in an open distributed manner with verifiable source. It's pretty interesting stuff.
- igorkraw 4y ago
  No it's not. If you run a trust based economy without clear property rights, this whole scenario doesn't exist. If you have property rights, you have a state to enforce them, so that state has a court, sues Alice (or Bob), sues John, the state punishes John, done. If you try to establish property rights without a state, then ans only then does it become interesting, but why would you do that? Establishing a democratic "state" is so simple and cheap that people do it all the time (associations, shareholder agreements), and in the end you need to physically enforce the property rights anyway, so why bother with the whole decentralised, anonymous rigamarole?
  - derangedHorse 4y ago
    Establishing a pure democracy is never easy and when you get the centralization of power that a representative democracy (or democratic republic) brings it can create incentive structures that don't represent the electing population. When you have the power to hide something as a political representative and the general population don't have the means to provide an attestation to whether something is true or not, it starts creating room for elected actors to work against the interest of the people in scenarios where they could reliably hide malpractice. The blockchain isn't converting democratic republics outright, but it does give more power to the people by allowing them to attach their unit of account to what is now considered to be an apolitical monetary system that can be participated in by anyone.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> Some examples IMHO are logs of participation (e.g. voting), agreements (e.g. contracts), exchange (e.g. payments), and auditing (e.g. compliance). many of these things require privacy (and/or secrecy), which blockchain cannot guarantee (nor offer) a private blockchain is simply a slower centralized database > which requires the participants must trust the central administrative entity to be truthful, unbiased, secure, and with sufficient high availability and disaster recoverability. that is exactly how voting, agreements (e.g. contracts), exchange (e.g. payments), and auditing (e.g. compliance) work. You trust the regulator/intermediator/notary/government/bank etc.

bornfreddy 4y ago
> many of these things require privacy (and/or secrecy), which blockchain cannot guarantee (nor offer) Note that not everything needs to be public. One can (and in many cases should) save the transaction details in a private chain (or database for that matter) and publish only its signature publicly, so that any change can always be detected. But of course there still need to be the usual society safeguards present, otherwise no technical mean will solve anything.

mmcnl 4y ago

I understand what you are saying, but you cannot say they provide trust advantages as a factual claim. The trust model is _different_, not better. There's value in centralized trust as well.

specialist 4y ago

Yes and: tamper evident. > Some examples are logs of participation Yes and: Medical records. While working in healthcare IT, mid-2000s, our records would be used to show who knew what when. There was a general uneasiness that our source of truth was just database entries and log files. I had somehow heard about using rolling hashes in log files. As you well know, then if any entries had errors (bad code, tampering, whatever), we'd be more likely to spot them. I managed to implement a prototype, before our startup was acquihired and our products shutdown (sniff). Sadly, none of the new PHBs understood or were interested in all the cool tech we had created. Then some time later people started talking about slapping RFID and QR onto everything. Because hospitals are like a fight pit, with belligerents from different orgs and corps, coming and going, we thought to use a shared (tamper evident) audit log. aka blockchain. Sadly, that too didn't come to pass on our watch. Beyond shared audit logs -- stuff like PoW/PoS, currency, whatever -- doesn't made any sense to me. I eventually decided it's all grift, though I'd be happy to proven wrong.