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The value of blockchains seem so obvious to me, that I wonder if OP can be genuine. ask_111: How can having a public log that is extremely tamper resistant not

by TekMol 5y ago

The value of blockchains seem so obvious to me, that I wonder if OP can be genuine. ask_111: How can having a public log that is extremely tamper resistant not have value? Let's look at a concrete example: Bitcoin. You can write something into the Bitcoin blockchain and be very sure that the information you wrote into it will stay there pretty much forever. Is that enough, or do we also have to discuss why having such a tamper proof log has value?

ak_111 5y ago
I do agree that tamper proof log is very useful, but I don't believe that it is something you can't achieve using traditional database tech. I have a question for you that can short-circuit our discussion. You claim that the value is "so obvious" to you, why then one decade in there isn't one serious application of blockchain in the real world (not even in the dark web with early adpaters)? I mean a workflow that has been entirely transformed by it, despite all the investment and smart people working in the space? The lack of examples is the point that I find most baffling at all.
- rebuilder 5y ago
  Selling illicit goods seems to have been transformed by Bitcoin.
  - ak_111 5y ago
    A bit of contentious point but I want to distinguish between bitcoin blockchain and blockchain tech. Even as a bitcion skeptic, its market cap went from $0 to $1T and you can't argue with that. But circa 2012 people started marketing blockchain as an independent technology that can solve all sort of problems. This is the bit I have issues with, there hasn't been a single successful use case sense.
  - aerique 5y ago
    This can be a good thing. Just because a government prohibits something doesn't mean it is bad. (Yes, now we can devolve into a discussion about what "bad" means.)
- hitpointdrew 5y ago
  Please provide an example of any database that is tamper resistant. As a DevOps engineer I have setup and configured many different databases, I have yet to come across any that someone with admin credentials (which you always need at one least of), didn’t have the ultimate ability to tamper and do anything they will to database.
  - ak_111 5y ago
    even simpler than database technology. A git repository is tamper resistant.
    - funklute 5y ago
      No it's not. You can rewrite history.
    - icelancer 5y ago
      Not under SHA-1 it isn't.
  - funklute 5y ago
    I agree that databases on their own are never tamper resistant. But you can certainly set up a process around the database that guarantees tamper resistance. You'll still have to trust said process, and with blockchain you still have to trust the code. You'll never get away from having to trust _something_, but at least it is in theory feasible to have tamper resistance both with a centralised database and with a blockchain.
    - dropnerd 5y ago
      in practice, there's a difference between "our SREs and management promise to not change anything" and "it would cost x billion dollars to replace this record with a different one, based on previous attacks we've observed"
      - funklute 5y ago
- TekMol 5y ago
  You can only create "tamper proofness" aka security with social coordination. Your bankaccount is somewhat secure due to layers and layers of agreements and interdependencies of people. Bitcoin works the same way, but in a much more modern way and achieves much better security. The git repo you mention elsewhere is something completely different. There is no security baked into git. A git repo is just a bunch of files. No workflows have been transformed in a decade because workflows do not change that fast. TCP/IP and and the rest of the internet protocol suite was developed the 60s. It started to disrupted workflows 40 years later.
  - boplicity 5y ago
    > Bitcoin works the same way, but in a much more modern way and achieves much better security. Is this true in practice? Haven't there been multiple massive bitcoin thefts? If these happened to a bank, you'd have a chance to get your money back. With Bitcoin -- it's just gone.
    - TekMol 5y ago
      That is not the type of log level security we are discussing. "Security" here means that a piece of data that was written to the log stays there unaltered. "Theft" is on a much higher abstraction level. A "Bitcoin theft" is that someone steals your key and then appends a message to the log "Boplicity pays 17 BTC to Joe. Signed: Boblicity". Stealing your private key does not take place on the blockchain. And all previous entries to the log are still there.
      - zach_garwood 5y ago
        And those goalposts just fly by!
        xboxnolifes 5y ago
        These are the unmoved goalposts from this comment chain.
NicoJuicy 5y ago
> You can write something into the Bitcoin blockchain and be very sure that the information you wrote into it will stay there pretty much forever. Slower than a database and hard to migrate. Check
sriram_malhar 5y ago
> How can having a public log that is extremely tamper resistant not have value? Because achieving that tamper resistance the blockchain way is so energy-intensive that it has no value for me.
yokoprime 5y ago
Why is it better than cryptographic signatures using certificates?
gls2ro 5y ago
How is that something good except from a pure technical perspective? It is so obvious that we should not have records that cannot be deleted. Specially when talking about freedom. It seems to strange to me that supporters of blockchain talk about freedom while also saying that you can put up records that cannot be deleted.
kbrkbr 5y ago
Let me point out that it will stay there pretty much forever as long as someone is paying for storage and computing. I would think this tied to the possibility of earning real money.
alkonaut 5y ago
> Is that enough, or do we also have to discuss why having such a tamper proof log has value? What I wonder is rather are there enough instances where it has value to actually motivate the hype (investment etc)? I can definitely see several dozen people working with this tech a few decades from now…
swores 5y ago
Personally I've not yet had any value from knowing that I can make a financial transaction logged on Bitcoin's chain and I don't know anyone who has used Bitcoin for that reason, so... I guess you do need to discuss why that log has value if you want more people to use it. I find the tech interesting, but that's not the same as useful to me.
beowulfey 5y ago
Honestly? To me it sounds like a solution looking for a problem. How would this affect me in daily applications?
FabHK 5y ago
Yes. I wonder how we know what happened in the 1970s or 1990s, or what the lottery numbers were back then, or what the election result was, or who owned which house. There was no Blockchain back then, so no tamper resistant public log back then, so, I guess we'll never really know.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
retube 5y ago
Sure it is a tamper resistant log. But what is the use of that? what problems is it solving? Please give me a concrete example!!

by TekMol 5y ago

ak_111 5y ago

I do agree that tamper proof log is very useful, but I don't believe that it is something you can't achieve using traditional database tech. I have a question for you that can short-circuit our discussion. You claim that the value is "so obvious" to you, why then one decade in there isn't one serious application of blockchain in the real world (not even in the dark web with early adpaters)? I mean a workflow that has been entirely transformed by it, despite all the investment and smart people working in the space? The lack of examples is the point that I find most baffling at all.

rebuilder 5y ago
Selling illicit goods seems to have been transformed by Bitcoin.
- ak_111 5y ago
  A bit of contentious point but I want to distinguish between bitcoin blockchain and blockchain tech. Even as a bitcion skeptic, its market cap went from $0 to $1T and you can't argue with that. But circa 2012 people started marketing blockchain as an independent technology that can solve all sort of problems. This is the bit I have issues with, there hasn't been a single successful use case sense.
- aerique 5y ago
  This can be a good thing. Just because a government prohibits something doesn't mean it is bad. (Yes, now we can devolve into a discussion about what "bad" means.)
hitpointdrew 5y ago
Please provide an example of any database that is tamper resistant. As a DevOps engineer I have setup and configured many different databases, I have yet to come across any that someone with admin credentials (which you always need at one least of), didn’t have the ultimate ability to tamper and do anything they will to database.
- ak_111 5y ago
  even simpler than database technology. A git repository is tamper resistant.
  - funklute 5y ago
    No it's not. You can rewrite history.
  - icelancer 5y ago
    Not under SHA-1 it isn't.
- funklute 5y ago
  I agree that databases on their own are never tamper resistant. But you can certainly set up a process around the database that guarantees tamper resistance. You'll still have to trust said process, and with blockchain you still have to trust the code. You'll never get away from having to trust _something_, but at least it is in theory feasible to have tamper resistance both with a centralised database and with a blockchain.
  - dropnerd 5y ago
    in practice, there's a difference between "our SREs and management promise to not change anything" and "it would cost x billion dollars to replace this record with a different one, based on previous attacks we've observed"
    - funklute 5y ago
TekMol 5y ago
You can only create "tamper proofness" aka security with social coordination. Your bankaccount is somewhat secure due to layers and layers of agreements and interdependencies of people. Bitcoin works the same way, but in a much more modern way and achieves much better security. The git repo you mention elsewhere is something completely different. There is no security baked into git. A git repo is just a bunch of files. No workflows have been transformed in a decade because workflows do not change that fast. TCP/IP and and the rest of the internet protocol suite was developed the 60s. It started to disrupted workflows 40 years later.
- boplicity 5y ago
  > Bitcoin works the same way, but in a much more modern way and achieves much better security. Is this true in practice? Haven't there been multiple massive bitcoin thefts? If these happened to a bank, you'd have a chance to get your money back. With Bitcoin -- it's just gone.
  - TekMol 5y ago
    That is not the type of log level security we are discussing. "Security" here means that a piece of data that was written to the log stays there unaltered. "Theft" is on a much higher abstraction level. A "Bitcoin theft" is that someone steals your key and then appends a message to the log "Boplicity pays 17 BTC to Joe. Signed: Boblicity". Stealing your private key does not take place on the blockchain. And all previous entries to the log are still there.
    - zach_garwood 5y ago
      And those goalposts just fly by!
      - xboxnolifes 5y ago
        These are the unmoved goalposts from this comment chain.

NicoJuicy 5y ago

> You can write something into the Bitcoin blockchain and be very sure that the information you wrote into it will stay there pretty much forever. Slower than a database and hard to migrate. Check

sriram_malhar 5y ago

> How can having a public log that is extremely tamper resistant not have value? Because achieving that tamper resistance the blockchain way is so energy-intensive that it has no value for me.

yokoprime 5y ago

Why is it better than cryptographic signatures using certificates?

gls2ro 5y ago

How is that something good except from a pure technical perspective? It is so obvious that we should not have records that cannot be deleted. Specially when talking about freedom. It seems to strange to me that supporters of blockchain talk about freedom while also saying that you can put up records that cannot be deleted.

kbrkbr 5y ago

Let me point out that it will stay there pretty much forever as long as someone is paying for storage and computing. I would think this tied to the possibility of earning real money.

alkonaut 5y ago

> Is that enough, or do we also have to discuss why having such a tamper proof log has value? What I wonder is rather are there enough instances where it has value to actually motivate the hype (investment etc)? I can definitely see several dozen people working with this tech a few decades from now…

swores 5y ago

Personally I've not yet had any value from knowing that I can make a financial transaction logged on Bitcoin's chain and I don't know anyone who has used Bitcoin for that reason, so... I guess you do need to discuss why that log has value if you want more people to use it. I find the tech interesting, but that's not the same as useful to me.

beowulfey 5y ago

Honestly? To me it sounds like a solution looking for a problem. How would this affect me in daily applications?

FabHK 5y ago

Yes. I wonder how we know what happened in the 1970s or 1990s, or what the lottery numbers were back then, or what the election result was, or who owned which house. There was no Blockchain back then, so no tamper resistant public log back then, so, I guess we'll never really know.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

retube 5y ago

Sure it is a tamper resistant log. But what is the use of that? what problems is it solving? Please give me a concrete example!!