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"but in case you want a real answer for Spain specifically, an internet person I know named Cassander explained to me that the basic cause of this is that becau

by cft 4y ago

"but in case you want a real answer for Spain specifically, an internet person I know named Cassander explained to me that the basic cause of this is that because the US is richer than Spain, the quality of our good is higher and the the cost of labor similarly so; if I buy a can opener or rent a house, I’m forced to buy or rent something at a higher quality level" I am an American (San Franciscan) who have been staying in Córdoba Spain for half a year, and I see the opposite. The average quality of goods here is the same or often better than in the US. And everything is cheaper (and incomes are lower, too). All services are better: I was first stunned when a deli clerk at a medium level supermarket, similar to Safeway sliced me some cheese, and tried to carefully arrange all the slices vertically, before wrapping them, and then sincerely apologized because two slices broke. And it goes on. Food (especially supermarket) is healthier in San Francisco, it's higher quality and there's more variety. It's also way more expensive. The restaurant food is way tastier and cheaper in Spain, although i would not call it very healthy. Problem is that certain goods (computers, phones, electronic components) are never Spanish, but a lot of cars and high tech bikes are, for example. I had a very hard time getting a replacement Dell XPS13 fan here: not sold on any Spanish sites, and very long customs delays for a $20 part when shipped from the US. I ended up buying a MacBook pro from a local Mac reseller.

abnercoimbre 4y ago
Wow nice, a few questions if you don't mind: 1. Why are income levels lower? 2. Everything is cheaper, but is it cheap enough to be more affordable with the lower income? 3. Do you plan to stay in Spain long-term? Thanks!
- cft 4y ago
  1. I do not yet know why. I think somebody may chime in on here. Maybe because there are no multinationals, the economy appears to be somewhat local, insulated. 2. Middle class here has way more comfortable life than in San Francisco. I mean life quality. If you want to do something new, eg some new tech, it's another matter. 3. For a while, but it's not super easy from the bureaucratic standpoint, without the EU residency. The bureaucracy here is very slow and inefficient.
  - gradschoolfail 4y ago
    Replying to 2. Curiously, curiosity (exploring tech) is cheaper in the US. I don’t see why it necessarily has to be, though. EU folks are more educated, hence they can select promising avenues and avoid boredom and even upfront costs. E.g. you want to train a new language model? Harnessing your polyglot nature, you find a far better kind of language model where you eschew the latest TPU. You learn quickly from Juergen Schmidhuber, whom Americans do not realize, has already solved everything in machine learning. It is hard to do new things in the EU because there is nothing new in the EU — someone already did it.
- bruce511 4y ago
  I have not lived in the US, and I'm not an economist, so this is annecdonte, not data. 1. Things are cheaper because there are fewer rich[1] people. It makes sense to price things to the level where you make a little for each sale but keep your market large. There are intrinsically fewer people, which means less demand. A container of tin openers is still a container load to get rid of. Of course selling for less means you make less, meaning the seller does not become richer than his customers. There is also a massive difference in mindset between the US and everywhere else. In the US the only measure is money. If you have money, everything else flows from that, if you don't have money everything is harder. Outside the US, money is still a driving force, but not to the same degree. There is less opportunity to be a billionaire, so the top is somewhat pushed-down, but at the same time the bottom is higher, and the safety net is better. But we are all fish in water - we like what we know - Americans would not want to be Spain, and the Spanish would hate to be American. Europeans prioritize family time, vacations, shorter work weeks. Americans prioritize rich company owners. The latter allows for ordinary folk to become very rich. Or at least dream of it. [1] rich in the sense that they have disposable income enough to afford your thing.
  - Ultimatt 4y ago
    Billionaires per million people is about 1.8 in the USA and 1.5 in Germany. The opportunity is extremely similar, compared with say China that has plenty of billionaires but its 0.2 per million people. The reality is very simple, all of Europe looks extremely socialist in comparison to the USA. People don't need millions throughout their lifetime to cover medical bills. Student debt is either non existent or orders of magnitude lower etc. Europeans also work less per week, so you should adjust incomes to reflect prorated time worked.
    - wozniacki 4y ago
      This largely ignores the crucial role that the U.S. has played as global ensure-r of security, world order and enabler of global free trade. Peter Zeihan speaks at length about this.[1] For example Germany has recently said it would sharply increase its spending on defense to more than 2% of its economic output in one of a series of policy shifts.[1] Other European countries will be increasing their defense spending too. Formerly it was just the U.S. footing the lion share of the NATO bill. That will rapidly change. And that will also affect how much of the domestic spending it eats into. This has been largely ignored in past number crunching of living standards of various countries. [1] The places America cares about post Globalization | Peter Zeihan (2021) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oeG170bv7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oeG170bv7k [2] Germany to increase defence spending in response to 'Putin's war' - Scholz https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germany-hike-defense-spending-scholz-says-further-policy-shift-2022-02-27/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germany-h...
- yobbo 4y ago
  > 1. Why are income levels lower? USA is in a unique position where it can stimulate its economy to a degree that is treatise-wise impossible for EU governments in EMU, and (until recently) without causing inflation. Southern Europe used to have very high inflation before EMU. For Spain, there is no equivalent to all the US government debts held by China and Japan, which you might view as subsidies to the US government. A better question might be why Germany is wealthier than Spain. The answer will involve work ethic and discipline, attitude vs self-sacrifice, long-term strategic planning for industry, and so on. You probably won't see this is in individuals nowadays, but systemically and historically this might have been what "set the stage".
  - kurupt213 4y ago
    China hold very little US debt…around 1T USD. Americans are far and away the largest holders of US debt.
kstenerud 4y ago
It's a similar situation in Germany. Overall costs are lower than the time I lived in the USA, the quality is much better (especially food and education), the infrastructure is head-and-shoulders above (especially the roads, internet, phone plans, environment, litter, buildings in general). Taxes at the end of the day are close enough compared to California. Plus all the city centers are car-free zones. And a medical procedure won't bankrupt you.
- chii 4y ago
  It's probably safe to say that the median person enjoys much higher quality of life in spain than the median person in the US. But i would also claim that it's also true that you can earn more money in the US, if you have the skill and may be initial capital, than you can in spain. So in the end, you end up with a land of opportunity in the USA, but not the land you would retire on.
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    This is true in any country with high inequality: Those lucky enough to have the opportunities can make a killing, because it comes at the cost of everyone else.
    - chii 4y ago
      > Those lucky enough to have the opportunities can make a killing, because it comes at the cost of everyone else. that's not strictly true. It's only true if the person making a killing is not producing any value. Wealth creation can be a positive-sum game, rather than a zero-sum game. I do believe that the USA's wealth creation opportunities are mostly positive-sum.
      - kstenerud 4y ago
        That wasn't my experience in the 6 years I lived there. Even in the most advanced cities, the misery and squalor and decaying infrastructure was brutal. It's the only first world country I've lived in where I genuinely feared for my safety at times (especially in Chicago and Philadelphia). Did you know that they have to close down BART stations from time to time in order to clean out the human faeces that have gummed up the escalators? And the smaller towns in poor areas... yowsers! I've seen prison camps with better living conditions. Americans are always commenting about how unusually clean Canada is, but Canada is actually quite ordinary; that's how first world countries normally look.
InCityDreams 4y ago
>Food (especially supermarket) is 1) healthier in San Francisco, it's 2) higher quality and there's more 3) variety. How so, on all three points?
- gumby 4y ago
  A lot of it is grown locally (other US states also import food from California, but it’s not local). Also in SF these days food prices are high for the US. Head east 100 miles and the food is the same as everywhere else: factory output even though that’s where a lot of food is grown! In California, most of the state (by land) is red state poor and votes accordingly. However 60+% of the population lives in a couple of blue state rich pockets, hence the politics. This is why, for example, at the national level the leader of the House of Representatives and the leader of its opposition are both from California.

by cft 4y ago

abnercoimbre 4y ago

Wow nice, a few questions if you don't mind: 1. Why are income levels lower? 2. Everything is cheaper, but is it cheap enough to be more affordable with the lower income? 3. Do you plan to stay in Spain long-term? Thanks!

cft 4y ago
1. I do not yet know why. I think somebody may chime in on here. Maybe because there are no multinationals, the economy appears to be somewhat local, insulated. 2. Middle class here has way more comfortable life than in San Francisco. I mean life quality. If you want to do something new, eg some new tech, it's another matter. 3. For a while, but it's not super easy from the bureaucratic standpoint, without the EU residency. The bureaucracy here is very slow and inefficient.
- gradschoolfail 4y ago
  Replying to 2. Curiously, curiosity (exploring tech) is cheaper in the US. I don’t see why it necessarily has to be, though. EU folks are more educated, hence they can select promising avenues and avoid boredom and even upfront costs. E.g. you want to train a new language model? Harnessing your polyglot nature, you find a far better kind of language model where you eschew the latest TPU. You learn quickly from Juergen Schmidhuber, whom Americans do not realize, has already solved everything in machine learning. It is hard to do new things in the EU because there is nothing new in the EU — someone already did it.
bruce511 4y ago
I have not lived in the US, and I'm not an economist, so this is annecdonte, not data. 1. Things are cheaper because there are fewer rich[1] people. It makes sense to price things to the level where you make a little for each sale but keep your market large. There are intrinsically fewer people, which means less demand. A container of tin openers is still a container load to get rid of. Of course selling for less means you make less, meaning the seller does not become richer than his customers. There is also a massive difference in mindset between the US and everywhere else. In the US the only measure is money. If you have money, everything else flows from that, if you don't have money everything is harder. Outside the US, money is still a driving force, but not to the same degree. There is less opportunity to be a billionaire, so the top is somewhat pushed-down, but at the same time the bottom is higher, and the safety net is better. But we are all fish in water - we like what we know - Americans would not want to be Spain, and the Spanish would hate to be American. Europeans prioritize family time, vacations, shorter work weeks. Americans prioritize rich company owners. The latter allows for ordinary folk to become very rich. Or at least dream of it. [1] rich in the sense that they have disposable income enough to afford your thing.
- Ultimatt 4y ago
  Billionaires per million people is about 1.8 in the USA and 1.5 in Germany. The opportunity is extremely similar, compared with say China that has plenty of billionaires but its 0.2 per million people. The reality is very simple, all of Europe looks extremely socialist in comparison to the USA. People don't need millions throughout their lifetime to cover medical bills. Student debt is either non existent or orders of magnitude lower etc. Europeans also work less per week, so you should adjust incomes to reflect prorated time worked.
  - wozniacki 4y ago
    This largely ignores the crucial role that the U.S. has played as global ensure-r of security, world order and enabler of global free trade. Peter Zeihan speaks at length about this.[1] For example Germany has recently said it would sharply increase its spending on defense to more than 2% of its economic output in one of a series of policy shifts.[1] Other European countries will be increasing their defense spending too. Formerly it was just the U.S. footing the lion share of the NATO bill. That will rapidly change. And that will also affect how much of the domestic spending it eats into. This has been largely ignored in past number crunching of living standards of various countries. [1] The places America cares about post Globalization | Peter Zeihan (2021) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oeG170bv7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oeG170bv7k [2] Germany to increase defence spending in response to 'Putin's war' - Scholz https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germany-hike-defense-spending-scholz-says-further-policy-shift-2022-02-27/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germany-h...
yobbo 4y ago
> 1. Why are income levels lower? USA is in a unique position where it can stimulate its economy to a degree that is treatise-wise impossible for EU governments in EMU, and (until recently) without causing inflation. Southern Europe used to have very high inflation before EMU. For Spain, there is no equivalent to all the US government debts held by China and Japan, which you might view as subsidies to the US government. A better question might be why Germany is wealthier than Spain. The answer will involve work ethic and discipline, attitude vs self-sacrifice, long-term strategic planning for industry, and so on. You probably won't see this is in individuals nowadays, but systemically and historically this might have been what "set the stage".
- kurupt213 4y ago
  China hold very little US debt…around 1T USD. Americans are far and away the largest holders of US debt.

kstenerud 4y ago

It's a similar situation in Germany. Overall costs are lower than the time I lived in the USA, the quality is much better (especially food and education), the infrastructure is head-and-shoulders above (especially the roads, internet, phone plans, environment, litter, buildings in general). Taxes at the end of the day are close enough compared to California. Plus all the city centers are car-free zones. And a medical procedure won't bankrupt you.

chii 4y ago
It's probably safe to say that the median person enjoys much higher quality of life in spain than the median person in the US. But i would also claim that it's also true that you can earn more money in the US, if you have the skill and may be initial capital, than you can in spain. So in the end, you end up with a land of opportunity in the USA, but not the land you would retire on.
- kstenerud 4y ago
  This is true in any country with high inequality: Those lucky enough to have the opportunities can make a killing, because it comes at the cost of everyone else.
  - chii 4y ago
    > Those lucky enough to have the opportunities can make a killing, because it comes at the cost of everyone else. that's not strictly true. It's only true if the person making a killing is not producing any value. Wealth creation can be a positive-sum game, rather than a zero-sum game. I do believe that the USA's wealth creation opportunities are mostly positive-sum.
    - kstenerud 4y ago
      That wasn't my experience in the 6 years I lived there. Even in the most advanced cities, the misery and squalor and decaying infrastructure was brutal. It's the only first world country I've lived in where I genuinely feared for my safety at times (especially in Chicago and Philadelphia). Did you know that they have to close down BART stations from time to time in order to clean out the human faeces that have gummed up the escalators? And the smaller towns in poor areas... yowsers! I've seen prison camps with better living conditions. Americans are always commenting about how unusually clean Canada is, but Canada is actually quite ordinary; that's how first world countries normally look.

InCityDreams 4y ago

>Food (especially supermarket) is 1) healthier in San Francisco, it's 2) higher quality and there's more 3) variety. How so, on all three points?

gumby 4y ago
A lot of it is grown locally (other US states also import food from California, but it’s not local). Also in SF these days food prices are high for the US. Head east 100 miles and the food is the same as everywhere else: factory output even though that’s where a lot of food is grown! In California, most of the state (by land) is red state poor and votes accordingly. However 60+% of the population lives in a couple of blue state rich pockets, hence the politics. This is why, for example, at the national level the leader of the House of Representatives and the leader of its opposition are both from California.