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Women's representation in tech matches the graduation rates of relevant fields. Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in

Women's representation in tech matches the graduation rates of relevant fields. Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school. I think it's in incorrect to say that they're "weeded out". That implies that women are being removed from the field, rather than exercising their own agency and choosing different fields.

throwaway0wha8h 5y ago
DEI industry relies on that narrative to support itself.
endisneigh 5y ago
Do you have a source for your claims?
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  Women's representation in tech fields varies from the low 20 percent to high teens. It can vary since "tech" is a nebulous designator. Computer science: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin... Electrical engineering: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.a... Mechanical engineering: https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gender-diversity-problem/#:~:text=Only%2013.8%20percent%20of%20mechanical,has%20been%20around%2020%20percent https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gende....
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    And this? > Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      > A recent survey by Junior Achievement conducted by the research group, Engine, showed that 9 percent of girls between ages 13 to 17 are interested in careers in STEM — Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics — which was conducted from April 16-21 to about 1,004 teenagers. > This is down from 11 percent from a similar survey in 2018. Teen boys’ interest in STEM careers increased to 27 percent, up from 24 percent in 2018. https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Education-and-Careers-Decreasing.html https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Ed...
okwubodu 5y ago
> exercising their own agency and choosing different fields. If we accept this as true, fields dominated by women should receive the same grace.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  And they are, right? How many times have you seen people push for quotas among pediatrician, veterinarians, or crime scene investigators? I certainly haven't seen any. And even if such agendas exist, they rarely manifest in overt discrimination like I've not only witnessed, but actively instructed to carry out.
- nostromo 5y ago
  You're conflating two issues: discrimination and self-selection. Discrimination is never ok. If a woman applies to a job as a developer, she should absolutely not be discriminated against because of her gender. Self-selection is always ok. If women in aggregate are more interested in biology than computer science, that is fine. This paper is evidence of discrimination, not self-selection.
  - okwubodu 5y ago
    I understand that. But if we have no problem hand waving discrimination away as self-selection when the exact same conclusion is drawn for other groups, I don’t see how this is suddenly different. Half the top comments on this very thread decry DEI efforts while calling this wrong without the slightest hint of irony.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      > But if we have no problem hand waving discrimination away as self-selection when the exact same conclusion is drawn for other groups We're not hand-waving away discrimination as self selection. If we saw higher call back rates among male applications as compared to identical female applications then there would be a case for discrimination. When we study the call-back rates in tech companies, the results typically show no bias and sometimes show bias in favor of women [1]. What's happening is that people are alleging discrimination on account of nothing except for disparities in representation in tech. You're right: tech shouldn't be any different. Do we conclude that veterinarians must be rife with anti-male discrimination because they're 80% women? Why do we make the same arguments about tech? 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644
colinmhayes 5y ago
> rather than exercising their own agency There is no free will. Society implanting ideas about which jobs you are capable of succeeding at is an especially obvious case of this. Why do you think women are going into different fields?
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  On the whole, the weaker the gender roles in society the lower women's representation are in STEM [1]. I'm nearly 30 and there was ample messaging to try and get girls into technology when I was in elementary school decades ago. I disagree that society is implanting ideas in girls that they're not capable of succeeding in tech. This is a disparity that persists despite ample efforts to try and encourage girls to go into tech. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    > I disagree that society is implanting ideas in girls that they're not capable of succeeding in tech. Then why do you think girls are self selecting away from computer science? Unless you believe they are somehow biologically wired to enjoy tech less it has to be because they're receiving messaging that causes them to believe they will enjoy it less than other fields relative to boys, right? I guess from your link you're going for the "women are biologically wired to enjoy math based professions less" but I find that difficult to buy > This is a disparity that persists despite ample efforts to try and encourage girls to go into tech. I certainly agree with this, it's just not working. It's quite clear that we are trying very hard to message to girls that they can succeed, but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be getting through convingly, since there's still such a huge disparity.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      Is it really hard to believe that, even without external bias or force, women might on average enjoy some things more or less than men? Your question is rooted in a gender-essentialist assumption that anything other than 50/50 representation has to be the result of some type of bias or external influence, and this is an assumption I do not share.
johnnyanmac 5y ago
>I think it's in incorrect to say that they're "weeded out". That implies that women are being removed from the field, rather than exercising their own agency and choosing different fields. That's simply the language used when a freshman takes some intro courses, feels overwhelmed or disinterested, and then chooses to change majors early on. Very few freshman actually fail their classes and get ejected from the university, they just realize they are paying a huge premium to learn something they feel they don't want to or can't keep up with. But yes, I agree that if we're focusing on the problem at the hiring lever you're way too late. But that's the mentality of publicly shared companies that simply want a good shareholder report next quarter. Investing in middle schoolers takes years to reap what is sown.

throwaway0wha8h 5y ago

DEI industry relies on that narrative to support itself.

endisneigh 5y ago

Do you have a source for your claims?

Manuel_D 5y ago
Women's representation in tech fields varies from the low 20 percent to high teens. It can vary since "tech" is a nebulous designator. Computer science: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin... Electrical engineering: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.a... Mechanical engineering: https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gender-diversity-problem/#:~:text=Only%2013.8%20percent%20of%20mechanical,has%20been%20around%2020%20percent https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gende....
- endisneigh 5y ago
  And this? > Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    > A recent survey by Junior Achievement conducted by the research group, Engine, showed that 9 percent of girls between ages 13 to 17 are interested in careers in STEM — Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics — which was conducted from April 16-21 to about 1,004 teenagers. > This is down from 11 percent from a similar survey in 2018. Teen boys’ interest in STEM careers increased to 27 percent, up from 24 percent in 2018. https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Education-and-Careers-Decreasing.html https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Ed...

okwubodu 5y ago

> exercising their own agency and choosing different fields. If we accept this as true, fields dominated by women should receive the same grace.

Manuel_D 5y ago
And they are, right? How many times have you seen people push for quotas among pediatrician, veterinarians, or crime scene investigators? I certainly haven't seen any. And even if such agendas exist, they rarely manifest in overt discrimination like I've not only witnessed, but actively instructed to carry out.
nostromo 5y ago
You're conflating two issues: discrimination and self-selection. Discrimination is never ok. If a woman applies to a job as a developer, she should absolutely not be discriminated against because of her gender. Self-selection is always ok. If women in aggregate are more interested in biology than computer science, that is fine. This paper is evidence of discrimination, not self-selection.
- okwubodu 5y ago
  I understand that. But if we have no problem hand waving discrimination away as self-selection when the exact same conclusion is drawn for other groups, I don’t see how this is suddenly different. Half the top comments on this very thread decry DEI efforts while calling this wrong without the slightest hint of irony.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    > But if we have no problem hand waving discrimination away as self-selection when the exact same conclusion is drawn for other groups We're not hand-waving away discrimination as self selection. If we saw higher call back rates among male applications as compared to identical female applications then there would be a case for discrimination. When we study the call-back rates in tech companies, the results typically show no bias and sometimes show bias in favor of women [1]. What's happening is that people are alleging discrimination on account of nothing except for disparities in representation in tech. You're right: tech shouldn't be any different. Do we conclude that veterinarians must be rife with anti-male discrimination because they're 80% women? Why do we make the same arguments about tech? 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069644

colinmhayes 5y ago

> rather than exercising their own agency There is no free will. Society implanting ideas about which jobs you are capable of succeeding at is an especially obvious case of this. Why do you think women are going into different fields?

Manuel_D 5y ago
On the whole, the weaker the gender roles in society the lower women's representation are in STEM [1]. I'm nearly 30 and there was ample messaging to try and get girls into technology when I was in elementary school decades ago. I disagree that society is implanting ideas in girls that they're not capable of succeeding in tech. This is a disparity that persists despite ample efforts to try and encourage girls to go into tech. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  > I disagree that society is implanting ideas in girls that they're not capable of succeeding in tech. Then why do you think girls are self selecting away from computer science? Unless you believe they are somehow biologically wired to enjoy tech less it has to be because they're receiving messaging that causes them to believe they will enjoy it less than other fields relative to boys, right? I guess from your link you're going for the "women are biologically wired to enjoy math based professions less" but I find that difficult to buy > This is a disparity that persists despite ample efforts to try and encourage girls to go into tech. I certainly agree with this, it's just not working. It's quite clear that we are trying very hard to message to girls that they can succeed, but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be getting through convingly, since there's still such a huge disparity.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    Is it really hard to believe that, even without external bias or force, women might on average enjoy some things more or less than men? Your question is rooted in a gender-essentialist assumption that anything other than 50/50 representation has to be the result of some type of bias or external influence, and this is an assumption I do not share.

johnnyanmac 5y ago

>I think it's in incorrect to say that they're "weeded out". That implies that women are being removed from the field, rather than exercising their own agency and choosing different fields. That's simply the language used when a freshman takes some intro courses, feels overwhelmed or disinterested, and then chooses to change majors early on. Very few freshman actually fail their classes and get ejected from the university, they just realize they are paying a huge premium to learn something they feel they don't want to or can't keep up with. But yes, I agree that if we're focusing on the problem at the hiring lever you're way too late. But that's the mentality of publicly shared companies that simply want a good shareholder report next quarter. Investing in middle schoolers takes years to reap what is sown.