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This comment section is gonna be a RIDE... To actually comment on the topic at hand: the reason there's still male-dominated spaces is that women are weeded ou

This comment section is gonna be a RIDE... To actually comment on the topic at hand: the reason there's still male-dominated spaces is that women are weeded out far earlier than the hiring stage. See, for example, statistics about women in STEM and especially computer science and realize that hiring managers don't even have to be sexist for male-dominated fields to exist, even though they still are.

shtopointo 4y ago
Are weeded out, or do they weed themselves out?
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>women are weeded out >especially computer science By choice or by force? N=1, but I still remember teachers saying "all the girls that should be in CS are going to math instead, they think CS is a boys' club" despite repeatedly catering 'women in tech' and such. According to some anecdotes I heard, this also changes outside Western countries, where women pick CS much more quickly. >statistics about women in STEM Actual statistics would show women aren't underrepresented in STEM as a whole, or not nearly as much as people claim. This discussion keeps being raised and they conveniently omit fields which are very much science, and have far more women than men coming in. Medicine, veterinary, agriculture, biological science are all fields women tend to compete or dominate to a certain degree. See https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-education-student-statistics/subjects https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-educatio....
- pyuser583 4y ago
  I wonder if all the “women in tech” programs simply serve as warning signs that there aren’t enough women in tech, and there’s a good chance a woman going into tech is going into an all boys club.
- csdreamer7 4y ago
  > "all the girls that should be in CS are going to math instead, they think CS is a boys' club" One of my female classmates who took an intro CS as an elective hated how the class was run. Essentially half the class was already proficient in programming and were expected to solve the problems on your own without talking. This was different than my math classes which were more likely to have female teachers and we were to work in groups to solve problems (this was how precalc was done). She said she felt scared by the expectation to already know these things before the class begun and all the silence while working.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwaway0wha8h 4y ago
The assumption in the "weeded out" rhetoric is that girls are on their way into tech in equal numbers and diverted out by some experience or more nefarious dissuasion. This has not been sufficiently demonstrated and usually is presented without evidence. It's unclear what people make of the fact that certain STEM disciplines, say Biology or other Life Sciences, have an over-representation of women. Curious why the "weeding" only occurs in certain STEM disciplines.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Well, there usually is some kind of evidence, but it's generally anecdotal, people reporting instances of obvious sexism that they observed.
Manuel_D 4y ago
Women's representation in tech matches the graduation rates of relevant fields. Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school. I think it's in incorrect to say that they're "weeded out". That implies that women are being removed from the field, rather than exercising their own agency and choosing different fields.
- throwaway0wha8h 4y ago
  DEI industry relies on that narrative to support itself.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Do you have a source for your claims?
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    Women's representation in tech fields varies from the low 20 percent to high teens. It can vary since "tech" is a nebulous designator. Computer science: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin... Electrical engineering: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.a... Mechanical engineering: https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gender-diversity-problem/#:~:text=Only%2013.8%20percent%20of%20mechanical,has%20been%20around%2020%20percent https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gende....
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      And this? > Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school.
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        > A recent survey by Junior Achievement conducted by the research group, Engine, showed that 9 percent of girls between ages 13 to 17 are interested in careers in STEM — Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics — which was conducted from April 16-21 to about 1,004 teenagers. > This is down from 11 percent from a similar survey in 2018. Teen boys’ interest in STEM careers increased to 27 percent, up from 24 percent in 2018. https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Education-and-Careers-Decreasing.html https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Ed...
swayvil 4y ago
- johnnyanmac 4y ago
  well, society advertised that angle 40 years ago, yes: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when... Unfortunate effect given that some 30 years later that social media would make tech much more universal. But this media portrayal of the "tech nerd" wasn't spread over a year and won't be solved in a year.

shtopointo 4y ago

Are weeded out, or do they weed themselves out?

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>women are weeded out >especially computer science By choice or by force? N=1, but I still remember teachers saying "all the girls that should be in CS are going to math instead, they think CS is a boys' club" despite repeatedly catering 'women in tech' and such. According to some anecdotes I heard, this also changes outside Western countries, where women pick CS much more quickly. >statistics about women in STEM Actual statistics would show women aren't underrepresented in STEM as a whole, or not nearly as much as people claim. This discussion keeps being raised and they conveniently omit fields which are very much science, and have far more women than men coming in. Medicine, veterinary, agriculture, biological science are all fields women tend to compete or dominate to a certain degree. See https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-education-student-statistics/subjects https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-educatio....

pyuser583 4y ago
I wonder if all the “women in tech” programs simply serve as warning signs that there aren’t enough women in tech, and there’s a good chance a woman going into tech is going into an all boys club.
csdreamer7 4y ago
> "all the girls that should be in CS are going to math instead, they think CS is a boys' club" One of my female classmates who took an intro CS as an elective hated how the class was run. Essentially half the class was already proficient in programming and were expected to solve the problems on your own without talking. This was different than my math classes which were more likely to have female teachers and we were to work in groups to solve problems (this was how precalc was done). She said she felt scared by the expectation to already know these things before the class begun and all the silence while working.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

throwaway0wha8h 4y ago

The assumption in the "weeded out" rhetoric is that girls are on their way into tech in equal numbers and diverted out by some experience or more nefarious dissuasion. This has not been sufficiently demonstrated and usually is presented without evidence. It's unclear what people make of the fact that certain STEM disciplines, say Biology or other Life Sciences, have an over-representation of women. Curious why the "weeding" only occurs in certain STEM disciplines.

TulliusCicero 4y ago
Well, there usually is some kind of evidence, but it's generally anecdotal, people reporting instances of obvious sexism that they observed.

Manuel_D 4y ago

Women's representation in tech matches the graduation rates of relevant fields. Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school. I think it's in incorrect to say that they're "weeded out". That implies that women are being removed from the field, rather than exercising their own agency and choosing different fields.

throwaway0wha8h 4y ago
DEI industry relies on that narrative to support itself.
endisneigh 4y ago
Do you have a source for your claims?
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Women's representation in tech fields varies from the low 20 percent to high teens. It can vary since "tech" is a nebulous designator. Computer science: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin... Electrical engineering: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_325.45.a... Mechanical engineering: https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gender-diversity-problem/#:~:text=Only%2013.8%20percent%20of%20mechanical,has%20been%20around%2020%20percent https://www.bu.edu/eng/about/dean-lutchen/engineerings-gende....
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    And this? > Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      > A recent survey by Junior Achievement conducted by the research group, Engine, showed that 9 percent of girls between ages 13 to 17 are interested in careers in STEM — Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics — which was conducted from April 16-21 to about 1,004 teenagers. > This is down from 11 percent from a similar survey in 2018. Teen boys’ interest in STEM careers increased to 27 percent, up from 24 percent in 2018. https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Education-and-Careers-Decreasing.html https://www.govtech.com/education/Female-Interest-in-STEM-Ed...

swayvil 4y ago

johnnyanmac 4y ago
well, society advertised that angle 40 years ago, yes: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when... Unfortunate effect given that some 30 years later that social media would make tech much more universal. But this media portrayal of the "tech nerd" wasn't spread over a year and won't be solved in a year.