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I've been privy to people trying to ban words like "whitelabel" at my company. Thankfully, management & executives at my company never stood for that BS so I st

by kache_ 4y ago

I've been privy to people trying to ban words like "whitelabel" at my company. Thankfully, management & executives at my company never stood for that BS so I still get to use whitelist & blacklist in documentation, and don't worry about those non-issues get in the way of me actually doing work. Google might be too far gone, and working with those people would be so exhausting that it's actually stopped me from applying (James Damore) There are companies that don't stand for that sort of stuff. And top paying ones too (pay better than Goog). Coinbase is one of them, and I don't want to mention mine to avoid dox. And go check blind, you'll find the vast majority of people don't stand for this BS either, and that they're just silenced. My advice? Hit them where it hurts & vote with your feet. Google's not the top payer anymore, so just leave.

BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"My advice? Hit them where it hurts & vote with your feet. Google's not the top payer anymore, so just leave. " In principle I agree but I feel like level headed folks choosing to leave only makes the echo chamber even worse. And sadly, I don't think Google as a company will suffer much of a downside because they're so big.
- kache_ 4y ago
  I unfortunately have a mortgage and can't live with the stress of the fear of being fired for some esoteric internet community I've joined. I've heard through the grapevines of people starting slack mob witch hunts over people who've used terms like "Fren" because of its very slight relationship with 4chan. I like the security of not working with unchecked witch hunts . I don't want to be Damore'd because of words I use outside of work.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    "I owe money and need to make money to pay it off, so I'm too afraid to say even reasonable things in public". Sounds like you have 3 problems.
    - kache_ 4y ago
      Hahaha yeah, sometimes I wonder how quickly I'd get fired if I didn't have mouths to feed. I'd probably be somewhere in Miami living in a hacker warehouse working on my 5th failed crypto project, consuming an assortment of drugs. Instead, it's the white picket fence, steady income and BBQs for me
  - ReadEvalPost 4y ago
    I've been publishing writing far outside consensus progressive attitudes since the pandemic began with zero issue so far. Don't make your workplace your audience or invite controversy around your workplace and you're very unlikely to have a problem.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  This may seem as bad in short term, but it's good in the long run. As the share of ideologically-driven people rises, capacity to solve problems and create valuable stuff decreases. The organization will die inevitably.
darepublic 4y ago
Airbnb did a similar thing, var/schema name whitelabel was excised. Weirdly black label remained. It caused a frontend bug temporarily
- tyingq 4y ago
  "Black Label" has positive connotations. So it feels like an effort to find anything with "white" where there might be a positive connotation. And anything "black" where there might be a negative connotation. And to remove all that matches, regardless of why the specific connotation exists, why it exists, whether it's related to race in any way, etc. I suppose that's easier than trying to debate every occurrence.
jedimastert 4y ago
Silly question: ignoring any kind of history, why fight for terms like "whitelist" and "blacklist" when terms like "allowlist" and "blocklist" are objectively clearer, especially for folks who's first language is not English?
- SamReidHughes 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kache_ 4y ago
  I don't mind those words, and I don't really fight for them. I use the words I use out of habit. I just think that the mismatch in effort/spun cycles on those terms by the routine vocal minority is a testament to how detached to reality these people are The things that worry me are the witch hunts started by the same group of people. See my other comment on "fren"
- silicon2401 4y ago
  Your question takes for granted that people are fighting for whitelist in blacklist, but it's the opposite. Whitelist and blacklist are long-established and familiar terms.
  - madamelic 4y ago
    No, they are not. Teach someone with no previous cultural knowledge what "allow" and "deny" means, then ask them what white list and black list means, then ask them what allow list and deny list means. Black and white list requires previous knowledge of what those terms mean, allow and deny do not. Someone can intuit from just basic language knowledge what the feature does.
    - npteljes 4y ago
      My pet peeve is that the new, inclusive terms are often more cumbersome. For example, allowlist is longer by a syllable. I know that it's hard, but I wish that people came up with terms that are just as handy as the old ones. Changing blacklist to blocklist is quite cool for one.
jacobsenscott 4y ago
whitelist and blacklist are lazy language, even if you ignore the fact that you personally are not bothered by them and you don't have the mental capacity to understand why someone else might be. They carry no intrinsic meaning, and if you can't come up with more descriptive language you are the problem. In all cases you can come up with a better word - include, deny, allow, block, ban, accept, etc. It all depends on what you are actually talking about. Enjoy your high paying job a Truth Social (I bet!).
- jaywalk 4y ago
  Nobody was bothered by these words until some jackass told them they should be.
  - jacobsenscott 4y ago
    That's obviously impossible.
- orangecat 4y ago
  Your ableist bigotry against people with lower intellectual capacity has been noted.
  - foolfoolz 4y ago
    You will now be limited to 1 inclusive language dismissal per week. All inclusion warnings past the first one will be made for you
_fat_santa 4y ago
My problem with all of this "progressiveness" in the workplace is that it just reeks of laziness. There are real problems in this world, yet it seems that the progressives are going after the minute details. From a SWE perspective, it would be like your app getting crushed by bugs and technical debt while you argue over how big the logo on the login page should be. The worst part of all of this, is the companies that are actively pushing this crap are the same companies that have the resources to make a difference in this world. If you're a company with a 1T+ market cap, actually do something bold with your cash. Imagine if all the top tech companies approached a bunch of non-profits trying to help people in 3rd world countries and said: "here's a blank check, do what you need to". We could solve a shitload of problems on this planet. But no, we all are just quibbling about our pronouns and how to write "inclusively".
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  Moral superiority is the cheapest form of superiority.

by kache_ 4y ago

BitwiseFool 4y ago

>"My advice? Hit them where it hurts & vote with your feet. Google's not the top payer anymore, so just leave. " In principle I agree but I feel like level headed folks choosing to leave only makes the echo chamber even worse. And sadly, I don't think Google as a company will suffer much of a downside because they're so big.

kache_ 4y ago
I unfortunately have a mortgage and can't live with the stress of the fear of being fired for some esoteric internet community I've joined. I've heard through the grapevines of people starting slack mob witch hunts over people who've used terms like "Fren" because of its very slight relationship with 4chan. I like the security of not working with unchecked witch hunts . I don't want to be Damore'd because of words I use outside of work.
- dekhn 4y ago
  "I owe money and need to make money to pay it off, so I'm too afraid to say even reasonable things in public". Sounds like you have 3 problems.
  - kache_ 4y ago
    Hahaha yeah, sometimes I wonder how quickly I'd get fired if I didn't have mouths to feed. I'd probably be somewhere in Miami living in a hacker warehouse working on my 5th failed crypto project, consuming an assortment of drugs. Instead, it's the white picket fence, steady income and BBQs for me
- ReadEvalPost 4y ago
  I've been publishing writing far outside consensus progressive attitudes since the pandemic began with zero issue so far. Don't make your workplace your audience or invite controversy around your workplace and you're very unlikely to have a problem.
rmbyrro 4y ago
This may seem as bad in short term, but it's good in the long run. As the share of ideologically-driven people rises, capacity to solve problems and create valuable stuff decreases. The organization will die inevitably.

darepublic 4y ago

Airbnb did a similar thing, var/schema name whitelabel was excised. Weirdly black label remained. It caused a frontend bug temporarily

tyingq 4y ago
"Black Label" has positive connotations. So it feels like an effort to find anything with "white" where there might be a positive connotation. And anything "black" where there might be a negative connotation. And to remove all that matches, regardless of why the specific connotation exists, why it exists, whether it's related to race in any way, etc. I suppose that's easier than trying to debate every occurrence.

jedimastert 4y ago

Silly question: ignoring any kind of history, why fight for terms like "whitelist" and "blacklist" when terms like "allowlist" and "blocklist" are objectively clearer, especially for folks who's first language is not English?

SamReidHughes 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kache_ 4y ago
I don't mind those words, and I don't really fight for them. I use the words I use out of habit. I just think that the mismatch in effort/spun cycles on those terms by the routine vocal minority is a testament to how detached to reality these people are The things that worry me are the witch hunts started by the same group of people. See my other comment on "fren"
silicon2401 4y ago
Your question takes for granted that people are fighting for whitelist in blacklist, but it's the opposite. Whitelist and blacklist are long-established and familiar terms.
- madamelic 4y ago
  No, they are not. Teach someone with no previous cultural knowledge what "allow" and "deny" means, then ask them what white list and black list means, then ask them what allow list and deny list means. Black and white list requires previous knowledge of what those terms mean, allow and deny do not. Someone can intuit from just basic language knowledge what the feature does.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    My pet peeve is that the new, inclusive terms are often more cumbersome. For example, allowlist is longer by a syllable. I know that it's hard, but I wish that people came up with terms that are just as handy as the old ones. Changing blacklist to blocklist is quite cool for one.

jacobsenscott 4y ago

whitelist and blacklist are lazy language, even if you ignore the fact that you personally are not bothered by them and you don't have the mental capacity to understand why someone else might be. They carry no intrinsic meaning, and if you can't come up with more descriptive language you are the problem. In all cases you can come up with a better word - include, deny, allow, block, ban, accept, etc. It all depends on what you are actually talking about. Enjoy your high paying job a Truth Social (I bet!).

jaywalk 4y ago
Nobody was bothered by these words until some jackass told them they should be.
- jacobsenscott 4y ago
  That's obviously impossible.
orangecat 4y ago
Your ableist bigotry against people with lower intellectual capacity has been noted.
- foolfoolz 4y ago
  You will now be limited to 1 inclusive language dismissal per week. All inclusion warnings past the first one will be made for you

_fat_santa 4y ago

My problem with all of this "progressiveness" in the workplace is that it just reeks of laziness. There are real problems in this world, yet it seems that the progressives are going after the minute details. From a SWE perspective, it would be like your app getting crushed by bugs and technical debt while you argue over how big the logo on the login page should be. The worst part of all of this, is the companies that are actively pushing this crap are the same companies that have the resources to make a difference in this world. If you're a company with a 1T+ market cap, actually do something bold with your cash. Imagine if all the top tech companies approached a bunch of non-profits trying to help people in 3rd world countries and said: "here's a blank check, do what you need to". We could solve a shitload of problems on this planet. But no, we all are just quibbling about our pronouns and how to write "inclusively".

Workaccount2 4y ago
Moral superiority is the cheapest form of superiority.