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Opt out by mail for a service you've only ever interacted with via an app on a phone shouldn't even be a thing.

kodah 5y ago
I wonder what kind of lawyer got out of law school and was like, "Damn, this is a fine liberal education. Time to destroy some lives." Edit: I guess similar to the one that got a math degree just to write dark patterns.
- pc86 5y ago
  I don't think the people "writing dark patterns," whatever that means, have math degrees.
  - akhmatova 5y ago
    If you don't know what it means (which is very easy to find out, btw) then why are you offering your advice and insight into the matter?
    - pc86 5y ago
      I know very well what they are, and that math plays no role in them beyond being able to understand an A/B test.
      - kodah 5y ago
        Juxtaposing the effort to get a math or law degree just to be a grifter was the intent!
      - akhmatova 5y ago
        You just said "people doing X, whatever that means" which strongly suggests that (at the time of writing) you either didn't know or care what X (in this case "dark patterns") means. And which is about as funny as this other snippet you just wrote: "Math plays no role in them beyond being able to understand an A/B test (i.e. to be able to understand math)" Anyway the commenter's point wasn't that writing software with dark patterns requires super-heavy math (or even a math degree specifically). But how ironic it is that people with (sometimes highly prestigious) STEM degrees -- and who are in fact objectively quite smart otherwise, sometimes almost intimidatingly so -- end up at allegedly prestigious companies that we don't need to name doing ... basically mindless and socially harmful work like this. And getting paid quite handsomely for it.
- 8ytecoder 5y ago
  I don’t think that’s how they’d view it at all. In their eyes it’s all these “spurious” lawsuits they’re protecting their client from within legal means. Arbitration is expedient and much cheaper.
  - Finnucane 5y ago
    It's mainly about trying to close out the possibility of class-action lawsuits. They figure individual users won't sue for small claims. One on one you can't compete with their legal departments. Some companies have actually backed off on this strategy when someone figured out how to generate massive numbers of arbitration requests.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  >I guess similar to the one that got a math degree just to write dark patterns. Or the programmer who finishes a top CS course only to go directly into undermining the democratic process by working for the likes of Cambridge Analytica, or the programmer giving teenagers depression through aggressive adtech. We're really in no position to be criticising lawyers for sending their industry's top minds to do morally questionable things!
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    > We're really in no position to be criticising lawyers for sending their industry's top minds to do morally questionable things! You may not be. I’m just helping people replace their broken phones.
    - BoxOfRain 5y ago
      I was using the royal we, as in 'we the software industry'. I'm quite picky personally.
      - trey-jones 5y ago
        If I may also be picky, the royal we should refer to oneself in the singular.
        BoxOfRain 5y ago
        I think I might have been using that term wrong my entire life!
  - S-E-P 5y ago
    At least you know that programmer is going to make it very hard for those who try to maintain their work after they are gone. :)
  - rmbyrro 5y ago
    Since making money seems to be a thing of the devil nowadays, Lawyers are much worse than developers, just because they usually make a LOT more money. Also, developers very often confess their misbehaviors on social media and donate their time to OSS and money to charity or the social warrior politician du jour, while lawyers are infidels. This basically clears the bad record for developers, so they can continue working for Facebook et. al. with no remorse. This is perfectly reasonable, logical way of thinking in the year 1022. I mean, 2022. If you think of downvoting, be careful, as you may end up being sued for intolerance. I'm dead serious. Or lively joking. Your choice.
- JohnHaugeland 5y ago
  What purpose do you think adding your political position to a hypothetical villain serves The phrase "liberal education" does not have a valid real world meaning
  - kodah 5y ago
    Little L liberal isn't political. Western countries are "liberal" countries which generally translates to free market, democracy, individualism, etc
    - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
      There remains no such thing as the thing that they actually said
      - kodah 5y ago
        The "they" in this conversation is me, btw. Here's your reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education

I wonder what kind of lawyer got out of law school and was like, "Damn, this is a fine liberal education. Time to destroy some lives." Edit: I guess similar to the one that got a math degree just to write dark patterns.

pc86 5y ago
I don't think the people "writing dark patterns," whatever that means, have math degrees.
- akhmatova 5y ago
  If you don't know what it means (which is very easy to find out, btw) then why are you offering your advice and insight into the matter?
  - pc86 5y ago
    I know very well what they are, and that math plays no role in them beyond being able to understand an A/B test.
    - kodah 5y ago
      Juxtaposing the effort to get a math or law degree just to be a grifter was the intent!
    - akhmatova 5y ago
      You just said "people doing X, whatever that means" which strongly suggests that (at the time of writing) you either didn't know or care what X (in this case "dark patterns") means. And which is about as funny as this other snippet you just wrote: "Math plays no role in them beyond being able to understand an A/B test (i.e. to be able to understand math)" Anyway the commenter's point wasn't that writing software with dark patterns requires super-heavy math (or even a math degree specifically). But how ironic it is that people with (sometimes highly prestigious) STEM degrees -- and who are in fact objectively quite smart otherwise, sometimes almost intimidatingly so -- end up at allegedly prestigious companies that we don't need to name doing ... basically mindless and socially harmful work like this. And getting paid quite handsomely for it.
8ytecoder 5y ago
I don’t think that’s how they’d view it at all. In their eyes it’s all these “spurious” lawsuits they’re protecting their client from within legal means. Arbitration is expedient and much cheaper.
- Finnucane 5y ago
  It's mainly about trying to close out the possibility of class-action lawsuits. They figure individual users won't sue for small claims. One on one you can't compete with their legal departments. Some companies have actually backed off on this strategy when someone figured out how to generate massive numbers of arbitration requests.
BoxOfRain 5y ago
>I guess similar to the one that got a math degree just to write dark patterns. Or the programmer who finishes a top CS course only to go directly into undermining the democratic process by working for the likes of Cambridge Analytica, or the programmer giving teenagers depression through aggressive adtech. We're really in no position to be criticising lawyers for sending their industry's top minds to do morally questionable things!
- Aeolun 5y ago
  > We're really in no position to be criticising lawyers for sending their industry's top minds to do morally questionable things! You may not be. I’m just helping people replace their broken phones.
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    I was using the royal we, as in 'we the software industry'. I'm quite picky personally.
    - trey-jones 5y ago
      If I may also be picky, the royal we should refer to oneself in the singular.
      - BoxOfRain 5y ago
        I think I might have been using that term wrong my entire life!
- S-E-P 5y ago
  At least you know that programmer is going to make it very hard for those who try to maintain their work after they are gone. :)
- rmbyrro 5y ago
  Since making money seems to be a thing of the devil nowadays, Lawyers are much worse than developers, just because they usually make a LOT more money. Also, developers very often confess their misbehaviors on social media and donate their time to OSS and money to charity or the social warrior politician du jour, while lawyers are infidels. This basically clears the bad record for developers, so they can continue working for Facebook et. al. with no remorse. This is perfectly reasonable, logical way of thinking in the year 1022. I mean, 2022. If you think of downvoting, be careful, as you may end up being sued for intolerance. I'm dead serious. Or lively joking. Your choice.
JohnHaugeland 5y ago
What purpose do you think adding your political position to a hypothetical villain serves The phrase "liberal education" does not have a valid real world meaning
- kodah 5y ago
  Little L liberal isn't political. Western countries are "liberal" countries which generally translates to free market, democracy, individualism, etc
  - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
    There remains no such thing as the thing that they actually said
    - kodah 5y ago
      The "they" in this conversation is me, btw. Here's your reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education