6 ms·

It's funny how openly corrupt German political party leaders always turn out to be, yet we still don't consider it to be a corrupt country.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> we still don't consider it to be a corrupt country It’s by and large not, and to the degree it is, it’s open and not insidious. The kind of corruption that kills economies is the insidious type. (And the stealy variety.)
- radicaldreamer 4y ago
  I disagree, VW/Mercedes emissions scandals and Wirecard (particularly the behavior of BaFin, which was defending wirecard and harassing journalists for years) point to entrenched corruption. Nobody in government or industry has really been prosecuted for either (some Wirecard folks are on the run).
alex_young 4y ago
That was 40 years ago. Do you think they are still as corrupt?
- guerrilla 4y ago
  Did you miss the last 40 years? Where's Gerhard Schröder work now?
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  Ahem. Cum-Ex
- johndoe0815 4y ago
  Yes - and Covid even accelerated this by enabling shady deals for the delivery of overpriced masks by CDU/CSU politicians. There's even a Wikipedia article about this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskenaffäre https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskenaffäre
- Matt3o12_ 4y ago
  Yea there are many examples of high level corruption in the german government (and most western governments actually, including the US). A recent example is the mask scandal with CDU/CSU (same party) https://www.dw.com/en/german-mask-scandal-unforgivable-violations-of-ethical-standards/a-56833018 https://www.dw.com/en/german-mask-scandal-unforgivable-viola... You will not find much local corruption though, which is what most people think of when they hear corrupt countries. Local corruption is paying of a cop, judge, that kind of stuff. I’m sure it also happens in Germany, but that is very very rare.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    My experience, having German family: Germans in general are very much about propriety and doing things correctly and are often very harsh if you step outside this line. So to be corrupt in Germany, and places like it, is to do the "corrupt" thing "correctly" -- e.g. in some structural fashion tied to political parties, long term associations, business connections, etc. that have the appearance of being practical, official, and "right." A friend of mine who came from Iran originally had a comment like this about western countries corruption vs "third world" or "second world" corruption: In Iran or etc. corruption is almost more democratic, because it means as a regular layperson you can bribe some local official to make something go your way. It's not just, it's not fair, it's ugly, but it's "accessible" if you have some spare cash. But in the west, corruption is for the super rich and the connected at a much higher level. e.g. you can't bribe a zoning official so you can build an addition or a shed, but if you're powerful enough you can control a political party and prevent it from investigating your company, have it enact some preferential laws, or stop it from some raising some tax.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      Yeah, I tried to explain this to someone about Portugal too... they didn't get it. If the system is completely broken and going to kill you in a "non-corrupt" country, there's nothing you can do about it as someone who's not a megacapitalist.
- ta123457864 4y ago
  Why do you expect that corruption decreases over time?
johndoe0815 4y ago
Maybe a first step to discourage this would be to restrict the time the chancellor or any minister can be in office to two election periods (like the US president). Sixteen years of Kohl and Merkel governments, respectively, paralyzed the country and hindered progress especially in the digital sector.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  Or just ban public officials from holding stock and from taking on jobs at state clients...
  - hetspookjee 4y ago
    They'll find a way, of that you can be sure. I think restricting the term is the only way possible to limit corruption in that regard.
    - prirun 4y ago
      Lottery elections: put people in office like jury duty. You don't want to be President? Too bad! You're qualified, have a good background (whatever that is), people have vouched for your character, so ... you're it for 4 years! I'd trust my next door neighbor to be President more than someone who actually wants to be President.
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        Liquid democracy. You can assign to your vote to anyone and reclaim it at any time for any reason. "Representatives" would just be people who a lot of people temporarily assigned their votes to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
      - fmmlp 4y ago
        Yes, Borges style: don't allow anyone who wants to be president to be it.
      - 4y ago
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Wasn? Bananen Republik Deutschland!
Barrin92 4y ago
Because corruption as an issue is overrated or wrongly defined. South Korea and Japan are mentioned in the article as exemplary countries when it comes to internet speed and infrastructure but both have virtually no dividing line between private conglomerates (Chaebol and Keiretsu respectively) and public administration. The same is true in Germany, but with few exceptions that kind of intersection doesn't matter because governance is by and large effective, which beats clean. In fact this kind of conglomeration between the public and private sector is why they get things done, compared to the vetocratic nature of other countries.
- RicoElectrico 4y ago
  German corruption indirectly affects the stability of the European Union, as they with France are de-facto most important players now. In the "new EU" countries, whatever Germany does wrong or hypocritical will surely be weaponized by euro-skeptics.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  Both countries have reputations for terrible “big business style” corruption. And really good infrastructure.
- JamisonM 4y ago
  If my recollections are accurate South Korea had a lot of fibre laid by power companies that turned out to be useful for internet precisely because it was a corruption situation where there was an infinite budget and no oversight and they ran optical lines for power meters for no good reason and it turned out to be a win in the end.
foobarian 4y ago
It's because they do even their corruption by the book, so it seems legit.
cjbgkagh 4y ago
Germans are really good at Public Relations (PR) but people don’t think they are, which helps them be good at PR.
- lampenrad 4y ago
  That is not the case. Otherwise, with regards to the war in Ukraine, Germany wouldn’t get this singled out when it comes to criticism. In fact, one of the biggest domestic criticisms of the government right now is their terrible communication strategy. English is the lingua franca and as such Anglo media has an incredible amount of power in shaping opinions in the West. And frankly, the reporting, particularly from Anglo and Eastern European media, has had a heavy anti-German bias for weeks now. (Up from the usual moderate bias)
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    I don't think this contradicts their point... Others can be more powerful, but most of the time those more powerful aren't attacking them. The rest of the time Germany's PR is good and working...
  - cjbgkagh 4y ago
    I would measure the efficacy of PR as the difference between perception and reality. The amount people are disappointed by revelations demonstrates the extent of that difference. Germany has always been like this and the disappointments are recent. I would say that the Anglo-sphere has better PR, it is an essential part of maintaining an empire, but people tend to know that the Anglo-sphere is highly active in PR so it comes as less of a surprise.
imtringued 4y ago
It's a corrupt country but its economy is big enough that it can shoulder a parasite or a dozen. Developing countries and eastern Europe does not have this luxury.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  Hmm, that's plausible. I'd still like to see someone try to measure that though. Interesting thought. I'm not sure Germany isn't experiencing negative effects from this though. Like the Gazprom thing, for example, this broadband thing, maybe even the nuclear thing?
- lampenrad 4y ago
  If Germany is a "corrupt country", than what‘s the rest of Europe?: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/koyyv5/european_public_sector_corruption_index/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/koyyv5/european_pub...
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    You're begging the question. My original point is that it's very surprising that Germany gets these ratings despite them being openly corrupt.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
maybe because they get exposed, then fail re-election

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> we still don't consider it to be a corrupt country It’s by and large not, and to the degree it is, it’s open and not insidious. The kind of corruption that kills economies is the insidious type. (And the stealy variety.)

radicaldreamer 4y ago
I disagree, VW/Mercedes emissions scandals and Wirecard (particularly the behavior of BaFin, which was defending wirecard and harassing journalists for years) point to entrenched corruption. Nobody in government or industry has really been prosecuted for either (some Wirecard folks are on the run).

alex_young 4y ago

That was 40 years ago. Do you think they are still as corrupt?

guerrilla 4y ago
Did you miss the last 40 years? Where's Gerhard Schröder work now?
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Ahem. Cum-Ex
johndoe0815 4y ago
Yes - and Covid even accelerated this by enabling shady deals for the delivery of overpriced masks by CDU/CSU politicians. There's even a Wikipedia article about this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskenaffäre https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskenaffäre
Matt3o12_ 4y ago
Yea there are many examples of high level corruption in the german government (and most western governments actually, including the US). A recent example is the mask scandal with CDU/CSU (same party) https://www.dw.com/en/german-mask-scandal-unforgivable-violations-of-ethical-standards/a-56833018 https://www.dw.com/en/german-mask-scandal-unforgivable-viola... You will not find much local corruption though, which is what most people think of when they hear corrupt countries. Local corruption is paying of a cop, judge, that kind of stuff. I’m sure it also happens in Germany, but that is very very rare.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  My experience, having German family: Germans in general are very much about propriety and doing things correctly and are often very harsh if you step outside this line. So to be corrupt in Germany, and places like it, is to do the "corrupt" thing "correctly" -- e.g. in some structural fashion tied to political parties, long term associations, business connections, etc. that have the appearance of being practical, official, and "right." A friend of mine who came from Iran originally had a comment like this about western countries corruption vs "third world" or "second world" corruption: In Iran or etc. corruption is almost more democratic, because it means as a regular layperson you can bribe some local official to make something go your way. It's not just, it's not fair, it's ugly, but it's "accessible" if you have some spare cash. But in the west, corruption is for the super rich and the connected at a much higher level. e.g. you can't bribe a zoning official so you can build an addition or a shed, but if you're powerful enough you can control a political party and prevent it from investigating your company, have it enact some preferential laws, or stop it from some raising some tax.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    Yeah, I tried to explain this to someone about Portugal too... they didn't get it. If the system is completely broken and going to kill you in a "non-corrupt" country, there's nothing you can do about it as someone who's not a megacapitalist.
ta123457864 4y ago
Why do you expect that corruption decreases over time?

johndoe0815 4y ago

Maybe a first step to discourage this would be to restrict the time the chancellor or any minister can be in office to two election periods (like the US president). Sixteen years of Kohl and Merkel governments, respectively, paralyzed the country and hindered progress especially in the digital sector.

guerrilla 4y ago
Or just ban public officials from holding stock and from taking on jobs at state clients...
- hetspookjee 4y ago
  They'll find a way, of that you can be sure. I think restricting the term is the only way possible to limit corruption in that regard.
  - prirun 4y ago
    Lottery elections: put people in office like jury duty. You don't want to be President? Too bad! You're qualified, have a good background (whatever that is), people have vouched for your character, so ... you're it for 4 years! I'd trust my next door neighbor to be President more than someone who actually wants to be President.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      Liquid democracy. You can assign to your vote to anyone and reclaim it at any time for any reason. "Representatives" would just be people who a lot of people temporarily assigned their votes to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
    - fmmlp 4y ago
      Yes, Borges style: don't allow anyone who wants to be president to be it.
    - 4y ago

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

Wasn? Bananen Republik Deutschland!

Barrin92 4y ago

Because corruption as an issue is overrated or wrongly defined. South Korea and Japan are mentioned in the article as exemplary countries when it comes to internet speed and infrastructure but both have virtually no dividing line between private conglomerates (Chaebol and Keiretsu respectively) and public administration. The same is true in Germany, but with few exceptions that kind of intersection doesn't matter because governance is by and large effective, which beats clean. In fact this kind of conglomeration between the public and private sector is why they get things done, compared to the vetocratic nature of other countries.

RicoElectrico 4y ago
German corruption indirectly affects the stability of the European Union, as they with France are de-facto most important players now. In the "new EU" countries, whatever Germany does wrong or hypocritical will surely be weaponized by euro-skeptics.
pyuser583 4y ago
Both countries have reputations for terrible “big business style” corruption. And really good infrastructure.
JamisonM 4y ago
If my recollections are accurate South Korea had a lot of fibre laid by power companies that turned out to be useful for internet precisely because it was a corruption situation where there was an infinite budget and no oversight and they ran optical lines for power meters for no good reason and it turned out to be a win in the end.

foobarian 4y ago

It's because they do even their corruption by the book, so it seems legit.

cjbgkagh 4y ago

Germans are really good at Public Relations (PR) but people don’t think they are, which helps them be good at PR.

lampenrad 4y ago
That is not the case. Otherwise, with regards to the war in Ukraine, Germany wouldn’t get this singled out when it comes to criticism. In fact, one of the biggest domestic criticisms of the government right now is their terrible communication strategy. English is the lingua franca and as such Anglo media has an incredible amount of power in shaping opinions in the West. And frankly, the reporting, particularly from Anglo and Eastern European media, has had a heavy anti-German bias for weeks now. (Up from the usual moderate bias)
- guerrilla 4y ago
  I don't think this contradicts their point... Others can be more powerful, but most of the time those more powerful aren't attacking them. The rest of the time Germany's PR is good and working...
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  I would measure the efficacy of PR as the difference between perception and reality. The amount people are disappointed by revelations demonstrates the extent of that difference. Germany has always been like this and the disappointments are recent. I would say that the Anglo-sphere has better PR, it is an essential part of maintaining an empire, but people tend to know that the Anglo-sphere is highly active in PR so it comes as less of a surprise.

imtringued 4y ago

It's a corrupt country but its economy is big enough that it can shoulder a parasite or a dozen. Developing countries and eastern Europe does not have this luxury.

guerrilla 4y ago
Hmm, that's plausible. I'd still like to see someone try to measure that though. Interesting thought. I'm not sure Germany isn't experiencing negative effects from this though. Like the Gazprom thing, for example, this broadband thing, maybe even the nuclear thing?
lampenrad 4y ago
If Germany is a "corrupt country", than what‘s the rest of Europe?: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/koyyv5/european_public_sector_corruption_index/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/koyyv5/european_pub...
- guerrilla 4y ago
  You're begging the question. My original point is that it's very surprising that Germany gets these ratings despite them being openly corrupt.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

maybe because they get exposed, then fail re-election