4 ms·

In addition to that I would add it needs to be a real store of value. Over any moderate timescale (a few years, say), it should reasonably maintain its value ov

In addition to that I would add it needs to be a real store of value. Over any moderate timescale (a few years, say), it should reasonably maintain its value over that period. Swings of 40% purchasing power are unacceptable for a useful currency. Sure, bitcoin maximalists love to point out that if you bought it a year ago, it's up XXX%. But what if I bought near its high value? Not so good a proposition then.

imtringued 4y ago
Please stop with the money illusion. Numbers on a balance sheet don't store anything. People do. Companies do. Governments do. Agreements between those sectors are needed to store value. Real value is stored in the warehouse, in the sewer pipes and roads, in the heads of the government officials and so on.
n_io 4y ago
Is the money in your bank account a real store of value? Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? I’m not arguing for bitcoin either way. But I implore you to take a hard look at your definition of real value in a system with inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.”
- reedjosh 4y ago
  > Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? This ^^^ Right now, if you're willing to buy in decent quantity you can still get 90% constitutional silver at only $28.64/$1 face value. https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/ https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/
- reedjosh 4y ago
  > inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.” Wow, also this! Say inflation is 8.5%, and you're holding an ounce of gold, then that gold raises by 8.5% in kind, you are still losing value as now you have to pay taxes on the 8.5% gained even though you didn't really gain anything.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > inflation is 8.5%, and you're holding an ounce of gold, then that gold raises by 8.5% in kind Gold is volatile in real terms [1]. If inflation is 8.5%, your gold might be worth 10% more, 100% more or 90% less. [1] https://goldprice.org/inflation-adjusted-gold-price.html https://goldprice.org/inflation-adjusted-gold-price.html
    - reedjosh 4y ago
      That isn't the point. In fact you're basically illustrating my point. Without taking risk, you will lose the value of your money. If you had some perfect asset (not gold since the volatility distracts you) that increased in dollars exactly as much as inflation, then you would still lose value to taxation even though you only gained as much as inflation. In the real world, yes, no perfect asset like that exists, so it's worse than that. You have to risk your earned value to keep your earned value over time.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > no perfect asset like that exists, so it's worse than that TIPs [1] come damn close. The interest is subject to federal tax, but you're still coming out ahead. [1] https://www.treasurydirect.gov/instit/annceresult/annceresult.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/instit/annceresult/annceresul...
        reedjosh 4y ago
        > TIPs [1] come damn close TBH I don't know too much about them, but from what I'm seeing they're something like 1-2% interest. Inflation is > 8% right now per the government's own numbers https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/treasury/ https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/treasury/ Am I mistaken? If so, I'd love to find a way to get guaranteed inflation beating returns.
        JumpCrisscross 4y ago
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Is the money in your bank account a real store of value? Cash encompasses physical notes, bank deposits and Treasuries. On one end, we have a form optimized for transacting. On the other, for transporting value over time [1]. Bitcoin is less efficient than Visa or Mastercard. It's more volatile than a Treasury. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DLTIIT https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DLTIIT
- pjc50 4y ago
  I feel that the value of my bank account has been far less relevant than (a) my salary and (b) my mortgage. And I suppose my pension, but since that's a government tax exempt deferred income mechanism it's not "mine" in quite the same way. It always feels strange talking to people for whom the hoard of cash is the important bit. For many people it would be far more useful to stabilize house prices - which are affected by a completely different set of factors.
  - reedjosh 4y ago
    I think this is because the hoard of cash is obviously useless today due to inflationary pressures. Today you get a loan (if you can) to start a business. It used to be you saved to start a business. But today savings is literally penalized. This debt based system makes you depend upon it. I wouldn't need a home loan (or at least not such a large one) if the government didn't subsidize loans and cause inflation.
    - imtringued 4y ago
      >I wouldn't need a home loan (or at least not such a large one) if the government didn't subsidize loans and cause inflation. You are mixing up money and land. Those are completely different topics. You need a land value tax for land. Your monthly payments are going to be limited by your salary. A higher interest rate means the bank takes a bigger cut. You're spending the same amount of money either way. A higher income would help you more. >It used to be you saved to start a business. But today savings is literally penalized. You are saying this, while savings are at an all time high. The money supply is growing significantly faster than inflation. If anything, we are pandering to savers way too much. What people don't seem to understand is that the rich save way way more than anyone else so increasing overall savings doesn't matter for the vast majority of people. Also, let me tell you something. Let's say you visit your family and your parents make you food. Would it be reasonable to tell them that you want to make your own food? It makes no sense, your parents already made food. Just take it. Don't pile up more food that nobody wants. It's the same with money. The rich have saved such an incredible amount of money, that there is literally no point in saving your own money.
    - 4y ago

imtringued 4y ago

Please stop with the money illusion. Numbers on a balance sheet don't store anything. People do. Companies do. Governments do. Agreements between those sectors are needed to store value. Real value is stored in the warehouse, in the sewer pipes and roads, in the heads of the government officials and so on.

n_io 4y ago

Is the money in your bank account a real store of value? Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? I’m not arguing for bitcoin either way. But I implore you to take a hard look at your definition of real value in a system with inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.”

reedjosh 4y ago
> Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? This ^^^ Right now, if you're willing to buy in decent quantity you can still get 90% constitutional silver at only $28.64/$1 face value. https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/ https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/
reedjosh 4y ago
> inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.” Wow, also this! Say inflation is 8.5%, and you're holding an ounce of gold, then that gold raises by 8.5% in kind, you are still losing value as now you have to pay taxes on the 8.5% gained even though you didn't really gain anything.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > inflation is 8.5%, and you're holding an ounce of gold, then that gold raises by 8.5% in kind Gold is volatile in real terms [1]. If inflation is 8.5%, your gold might be worth 10% more, 100% more or 90% less. [1] https://goldprice.org/inflation-adjusted-gold-price.html https://goldprice.org/inflation-adjusted-gold-price.html
  - reedjosh 4y ago
    That isn't the point. In fact you're basically illustrating my point. Without taking risk, you will lose the value of your money. If you had some perfect asset (not gold since the volatility distracts you) that increased in dollars exactly as much as inflation, then you would still lose value to taxation even though you only gained as much as inflation. In the real world, yes, no perfect asset like that exists, so it's worse than that. You have to risk your earned value to keep your earned value over time.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > no perfect asset like that exists, so it's worse than that TIPs [1] come damn close. The interest is subject to federal tax, but you're still coming out ahead. [1] https://www.treasurydirect.gov/instit/annceresult/annceresult.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/instit/annceresult/annceresul...
      - reedjosh 4y ago
        > TIPs [1] come damn close TBH I don't know too much about them, but from what I'm seeing they're something like 1-2% interest. Inflation is > 8% right now per the government's own numbers https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/treasury/ https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/treasury/ Am I mistaken? If so, I'd love to find a way to get guaranteed inflation beating returns.
        JumpCrisscross 4y ago
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Is the money in your bank account a real store of value? Cash encompasses physical notes, bank deposits and Treasuries. On one end, we have a form optimized for transacting. On the other, for transporting value over time [1]. Bitcoin is less efficient than Visa or Mastercard. It's more volatile than a Treasury. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DLTIIT https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DLTIIT
pjc50 4y ago
I feel that the value of my bank account has been far less relevant than (a) my salary and (b) my mortgage. And I suppose my pension, but since that's a government tax exempt deferred income mechanism it's not "mine" in quite the same way. It always feels strange talking to people for whom the hoard of cash is the important bit. For many people it would be far more useful to stabilize house prices - which are affected by a completely different set of factors.
- reedjosh 4y ago
  I think this is because the hoard of cash is obviously useless today due to inflationary pressures. Today you get a loan (if you can) to start a business. It used to be you saved to start a business. But today savings is literally penalized. This debt based system makes you depend upon it. I wouldn't need a home loan (or at least not such a large one) if the government didn't subsidize loans and cause inflation.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    >I wouldn't need a home loan (or at least not such a large one) if the government didn't subsidize loans and cause inflation. You are mixing up money and land. Those are completely different topics. You need a land value tax for land. Your monthly payments are going to be limited by your salary. A higher interest rate means the bank takes a bigger cut. You're spending the same amount of money either way. A higher income would help you more. >It used to be you saved to start a business. But today savings is literally penalized. You are saying this, while savings are at an all time high. The money supply is growing significantly faster than inflation. If anything, we are pandering to savers way too much. What people don't seem to understand is that the rich save way way more than anyone else so increasing overall savings doesn't matter for the vast majority of people. Also, let me tell you something. Let's say you visit your family and your parents make you food. Would it be reasonable to tell them that you want to make your own food? It makes no sense, your parents already made food. Just take it. Don't pile up more food that nobody wants. It's the same with money. The rich have saved such an incredible amount of money, that there is literally no point in saving your own money.
  - 4y ago