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Politically working in sound money (no printer go brrrr) is governmentally forbidden. Bitcoin subverted the corrupt political process and has brought that choic

Politically working in sound money (no printer go brrrr) is governmentally forbidden. Bitcoin subverted the corrupt political process and has brought that choice back.

scottLobster 5y ago
Bitcoin will only be "sound money" when I can pay my taxes in it. Or at least pay for my oil change. Sure it's artificially limited in quantity. Great! Doesn't make it money. It's a commodity like any other.
- reedjosh 5y ago
  If the government told you you're not a person, would that hold? To me you're saying nothing's money unless the government says it is. In my community there's a whole ecosystem of people trading goods and services in Bitcoin, silver, and Monero.
  - scottLobster 5y ago
    > If the government told you you're not a person, would that hold? Governments have always had the ability to dictate who is a citizen and who isn't. Someone born in Angola is not protected by or subject to the US Constitution. > To me your saying nothing's money unless the government says it is. Now you're learning! Granted in a democracy the people have a say in what governments do, so if you convince enough people that using bitcoin as a medium of exchange is a good idea then it may eventually be so. Good luck! Here's what happens right now if you try to pay your taxes in Bitcoin and refuse to convert to dollars: 1. The IRS warns you and charges you back-taxes for the delay 2. If you still refuse to pay after a certain period of time, they audit you and garnish any accounts they have access to until your taxes/back taxes are paid 3. If you have no IRS-accessible accounts, men with guns show up and seize your property, including but not limited to your Bitcoin, to make up the difference. And for extra points you may get charged with Tax Evasion, which can send you to jail. This entire process may take decades, but it happens. Sounds like pretty crappy money to me if that's the result of trying to use it at any significant scale. > In my community there's a whole ecosystem of people trading goods and services in Bitcoin, silver, and Monero. Great. You and I could also arrange to barter bars of extruded aluminum for goods and services. That doesn't make extruded aluminum money, or at least not "sound money". Note however that in the US those transactions are taxed just like any other, with the amount of tax determined by their value IN DOLLARS. If you're not reporting those transactions you're theoretically subject to the previously mentioned series of events. Now the IRS can't see literally everything, so you can get away with it to a point. But if Bitcoin/crypto eventually reached the scale where a significant number of economic transactions are transacted in it, one of two things will happen: 1. Enough voters/lobbyists will be convinced of its viability that political changes are made to accept it as currency (unlikely, given the traits of bitcoin) 2. An epic tax-evasion crackdown that will make the conviction of Al Capone look like a Cub Scout picnic.
    - n_io 5y ago
      - scottLobster 5y ago
        I actually keep about 1% of my non-retirement investments in bitcoin as a speculative commodity.
    - reedjosh 5y ago
      > 1. Enough voters/lobbyists will be convinced of its viability that political changes are made to accept it as currency (unlikely, given the traits of bitcoin) One can dream > 2. An epic tax-evasion crackdown that will make the conviction of Al Capone look like a Cub Scout picnic. Monero FTW. Your response to governments dictating who's a person: > Governments have always had the ability to dictate who is a citizen and who isn't. You're saying a non-citizen isn't a person? I find all your viewpoints defeatist. Maybe that or you still side with governments worldwide? If so, fine, but I don't. > Granted in a democracy the people have a say in what governments do Do they though? In America, from a purely signals and systems perspective, my choice comes down to red or blue (1 or 0) on a number of representatives and measures I do get to vote on--that's ignoring possibly corrupt voting. In the myriad of complicated laws that are passed, and even wars that are fought, I don't get more say than a binary choice on abstractions (representatives)? In what way is that government ruled by the people!?
      - scottLobster 5y ago
        > Monero FTW. Monero makes things more difficult, not impossible. If the government decides to outlaw Monero then by definition it will only be used by outlaws, and so long as the majority of the population doesn't see trading in Monero as worth the risk, it will remain limited in scope. > You're saying a non-citizen isn't a person? I find all your viewpoints defeatist. Maybe that or you still side with governments worldwide? If so, fine, but I don't. All right, you define what a "person" is and how it's relevant to this discussion. For all practical matters a random person in Angola might as well not exist to the US government, unless the US government decides they're important enough to warrant attention. I fail to see how the government not being able to deny my being a biological human is relevant here. And actually theoretically they could deny it and refuse to treat me as a person, it just wouldn't change the laws of physics. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia were notorious for telling people they couldn't be starving because "we're all equal, so if we're not all starving how can you be starving?" I also wouldn't call my views "defeatist", I'm just presenting uncomfortable truths that I've yet to hear a coherent strategy for tackling. Which can be summed up as: "How do you plan to handle the men with guns, and the authority to use them, who don't agree with you?" > Do they though? In America, from a purely signals and systems perspective, my choice comes down to red or blue (1 or 0) on a number of representatives and measures I do get to vote on--that's ignoring possibly corrupt voting. > In the myriad of complicated laws that are passed, and even wars that are fought, I don't get more say than a binary choice on abstractions (representatives)? In what way is that government ruled by the people!? I'm not saying the system is not corrupt or that it's perfectly representative. No system is either. But changes do generally follow the will of the populace in the long term on issues that affect a given population as a whole. Just look at Marijuana legalization, or the fact that we did withdraw (albeit with criminal incompetence) from Afghanistan. Now whether those changes are objectively positive or negative is another story, the whole process is full of half-measures, short-term thinking, corruption and unsatisfying messes. And citizens don't have perfect power as they would in a direct democracy (for good reason, lots of issues there). But we've yet to figure out anything better than some variety of democracy, and I don't see how crypto solves any of these problems unless you think the government has already collapsed beyond the ability to enforce laws on crypto users (it hasn't, at least in the US). You can either try to reform the system or replace it. Either way you need a solid plan for what comes after that accounts for the known variables, and I've yet to hear a "crypto will replace the dollar" argument that does so, from even a cursory reading of history.
- Aicy 5y ago
  This was fhe promise of the gold standard before the world wars. The gold standard would force governments to be financially disciplined, right? Wrong, as soon as governments needed to drop the gold standard they did it. Why wouldn't they do the same with the bitcoin standard?
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > gold standard would force governments to be financially disciplined, right? This is such a weird belief. Is the claim that prior to the 20th century there were no wars of conquest or colonies? No kings and countries running up ruinous debt?
    - 5040 4y ago
      The claim is that these things were much more difficult to do.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    Why does the government need to drop the gold standard? Why does it happen so many times? I am under the impression that it is the gold standard that is flawed. After all, it didn't fail for a lack of trying. It was adopted and abandoned so many times. What surprises me is that people think that the problem is evil/incompetent governments mismanaging the currency. Wouldn't it be more productive to think of reasons why such mismanagement is inevitable instead of just sweeping it under the rug? Greece did austerity and it didn't work. If Greece hadn't done austerity, it could have gotten a few more years of 5% growth. Austerity ended up increasing indebtedness instead of reducing it by massively reducing the GDP of Greece. It's only rational to "mismanage" your economy away from such a financial crisis. The real question should be, why is growth required every single year? Why can't we just stand still for a year and then pick up growth again? In my opinion it is quite simple. Savings and debts must equal in the global economy. So if the government introduces a debt brake, the private sector must reduce the amount of savings it holds. If those savings are held as cash, the government can't do anything about it. It can't just recall the bank notes. So debt can't go down. If it does anyway, then the money that is currency circulating, moving around from person to person is saved as cash until the amount of money that is actively circulating shrinks so much that daily transactions can't be made. That is what recessions are. A sudden malfunction in the medium of exchange function of money.
- LargeWu 5y ago
  In addition to that I would add it needs to be a real store of value. Over any moderate timescale (a few years, say), it should reasonably maintain its value over that period. Swings of 40% purchasing power are unacceptable for a useful currency. Sure, bitcoin maximalists love to point out that if you bought it a year ago, it's up XXX%. But what if I bought near its high value? Not so good a proposition then.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    Please stop with the money illusion. Numbers on a balance sheet don't store anything. People do. Companies do. Governments do. Agreements between those sectors are needed to store value. Real value is stored in the warehouse, in the sewer pipes and roads, in the heads of the government officials and so on.
  - n_io 5y ago
    Is the money in your bank account a real store of value? Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? I’m not arguing for bitcoin either way. But I implore you to take a hard look at your definition of real value in a system with inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.”
    - reedjosh 5y ago
      > Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? This ^^^ Right now, if you're willing to buy in decent quantity you can still get 90% constitutional silver at only $28.64/$1 face value. https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/ https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/
    - reedjosh 5y ago
      > inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.” Wow, also this! Say inflation is 8.5%, and you're holding an ounce of gold, then that gold raises by 8.5% in kind, you are still losing value as now you have to pay taxes on the 8.5% gained even though you didn't really gain anything.
throwaway82652 5y ago
No it didn't. Cryptocurrency is not "sound money" in any way because it's not backed by anything, in the case of proof-of-work coins it's only "backed" by random people solving random pointless math puzzles. Proof-of-stake is even worse because that's only backed by how much money people have already invested into the system.
cuteboy19 5y ago
Remind me how many cryptocurrencies were brred into existence the last year? Bitcoin merely replaces corrupt politics with even more corrupt politics (El Presidente Nayib Bukele for example)
imtringued 4y ago
"Sound money" I actually don't know what that is supposed to mean. You know, I am tired of these word games. Democratic People's Republic of Korea sounds cool until you realize that this is the official name of North Korea which has absolutely no relationship with democracy. In theory sound money would imply a money system that acknowledges the existence of the real world and human needs instead of deferring to theoretical models that are known to diverge from reality. Since money is capturing reality perfectly, it introduces no representational errors i.e. money that is in your bank account actually represents the capability to purchase a good or service immediately. Gold does not do this, unless you want to exchange your gold certificates (gold standard) for gold. When people save gold by putting it under their mattress, they effectively shifted their production schedule ahead, i.e. they produced today and they shifted their consumption schedule back, i.e. they consume later. The problem with this approach is that they are not asking anyone, whether they are willing to switch roles. By that I mean, is there anyone who agrees to consume now and produce later? If nobody made such an agreement then you will be surprised to hear that there is less produced than you planned to consume in the future, after all, you didn't tell anybody, nor did anyone approach you and explicitly gave you permission to consume in the future. There is increased demand and you get inflation. At some point people start working again and end up overproducing, there will be deflation. This mismatch in the consumption and production schedule is the cause of inflation or deflation over the short term with a gold standard. Sound money does not solve the problem. In fact, it is the root of speculation. If Bitcoin is sound money then the world doesn't need sound money. It needs money that isn't divorced from reality. It needs money that rewards planning ahead. It needs money that signals both abundance and scarcity of capital. It also needs to account for capital depreciation of idle capital and the loss of time of the unemployed.

Politically working in sound money (no printer go brrrr) is governmentally forbidden. Bitcoin subverted the corrupt political process and has brought that choice back.

scottLobster 5y ago

Bitcoin will only be "sound money" when I can pay my taxes in it. Or at least pay for my oil change. Sure it's artificially limited in quantity. Great! Doesn't make it money. It's a commodity like any other.

reedjosh 5y ago
If the government told you you're not a person, would that hold? To me you're saying nothing's money unless the government says it is. In my community there's a whole ecosystem of people trading goods and services in Bitcoin, silver, and Monero.
- scottLobster 5y ago
  > If the government told you you're not a person, would that hold? Governments have always had the ability to dictate who is a citizen and who isn't. Someone born in Angola is not protected by or subject to the US Constitution. > To me your saying nothing's money unless the government says it is. Now you're learning! Granted in a democracy the people have a say in what governments do, so if you convince enough people that using bitcoin as a medium of exchange is a good idea then it may eventually be so. Good luck! Here's what happens right now if you try to pay your taxes in Bitcoin and refuse to convert to dollars: 1. The IRS warns you and charges you back-taxes for the delay 2. If you still refuse to pay after a certain period of time, they audit you and garnish any accounts they have access to until your taxes/back taxes are paid 3. If you have no IRS-accessible accounts, men with guns show up and seize your property, including but not limited to your Bitcoin, to make up the difference. And for extra points you may get charged with Tax Evasion, which can send you to jail. This entire process may take decades, but it happens. Sounds like pretty crappy money to me if that's the result of trying to use it at any significant scale. > In my community there's a whole ecosystem of people trading goods and services in Bitcoin, silver, and Monero. Great. You and I could also arrange to barter bars of extruded aluminum for goods and services. That doesn't make extruded aluminum money, or at least not "sound money". Note however that in the US those transactions are taxed just like any other, with the amount of tax determined by their value IN DOLLARS. If you're not reporting those transactions you're theoretically subject to the previously mentioned series of events. Now the IRS can't see literally everything, so you can get away with it to a point. But if Bitcoin/crypto eventually reached the scale where a significant number of economic transactions are transacted in it, one of two things will happen: 1. Enough voters/lobbyists will be convinced of its viability that political changes are made to accept it as currency (unlikely, given the traits of bitcoin) 2. An epic tax-evasion crackdown that will make the conviction of Al Capone look like a Cub Scout picnic.
  - n_io 5y ago
    - scottLobster 5y ago
      I actually keep about 1% of my non-retirement investments in bitcoin as a speculative commodity.
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    > 1. Enough voters/lobbyists will be convinced of its viability that political changes are made to accept it as currency (unlikely, given the traits of bitcoin) One can dream > 2. An epic tax-evasion crackdown that will make the conviction of Al Capone look like a Cub Scout picnic. Monero FTW. Your response to governments dictating who's a person: > Governments have always had the ability to dictate who is a citizen and who isn't. You're saying a non-citizen isn't a person? I find all your viewpoints defeatist. Maybe that or you still side with governments worldwide? If so, fine, but I don't. > Granted in a democracy the people have a say in what governments do Do they though? In America, from a purely signals and systems perspective, my choice comes down to red or blue (1 or 0) on a number of representatives and measures I do get to vote on--that's ignoring possibly corrupt voting. In the myriad of complicated laws that are passed, and even wars that are fought, I don't get more say than a binary choice on abstractions (representatives)? In what way is that government ruled by the people!?
    - scottLobster 5y ago
      > Monero FTW. Monero makes things more difficult, not impossible. If the government decides to outlaw Monero then by definition it will only be used by outlaws, and so long as the majority of the population doesn't see trading in Monero as worth the risk, it will remain limited in scope. > You're saying a non-citizen isn't a person? I find all your viewpoints defeatist. Maybe that or you still side with governments worldwide? If so, fine, but I don't. All right, you define what a "person" is and how it's relevant to this discussion. For all practical matters a random person in Angola might as well not exist to the US government, unless the US government decides they're important enough to warrant attention. I fail to see how the government not being able to deny my being a biological human is relevant here. And actually theoretically they could deny it and refuse to treat me as a person, it just wouldn't change the laws of physics. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia were notorious for telling people they couldn't be starving because "we're all equal, so if we're not all starving how can you be starving?" I also wouldn't call my views "defeatist", I'm just presenting uncomfortable truths that I've yet to hear a coherent strategy for tackling. Which can be summed up as: "How do you plan to handle the men with guns, and the authority to use them, who don't agree with you?" > Do they though? In America, from a purely signals and systems perspective, my choice comes down to red or blue (1 or 0) on a number of representatives and measures I do get to vote on--that's ignoring possibly corrupt voting. > In the myriad of complicated laws that are passed, and even wars that are fought, I don't get more say than a binary choice on abstractions (representatives)? In what way is that government ruled by the people!? I'm not saying the system is not corrupt or that it's perfectly representative. No system is either. But changes do generally follow the will of the populace in the long term on issues that affect a given population as a whole. Just look at Marijuana legalization, or the fact that we did withdraw (albeit with criminal incompetence) from Afghanistan. Now whether those changes are objectively positive or negative is another story, the whole process is full of half-measures, short-term thinking, corruption and unsatisfying messes. And citizens don't have perfect power as they would in a direct democracy (for good reason, lots of issues there). But we've yet to figure out anything better than some variety of democracy, and I don't see how crypto solves any of these problems unless you think the government has already collapsed beyond the ability to enforce laws on crypto users (it hasn't, at least in the US). You can either try to reform the system or replace it. Either way you need a solid plan for what comes after that accounts for the known variables, and I've yet to hear a "crypto will replace the dollar" argument that does so, from even a cursory reading of history.
Aicy 5y ago
This was fhe promise of the gold standard before the world wars. The gold standard would force governments to be financially disciplined, right? Wrong, as soon as governments needed to drop the gold standard they did it. Why wouldn't they do the same with the bitcoin standard?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > gold standard would force governments to be financially disciplined, right? This is such a weird belief. Is the claim that prior to the 20th century there were no wars of conquest or colonies? No kings and countries running up ruinous debt?
  - 5040 4y ago
    The claim is that these things were much more difficult to do.
- imtringued 4y ago
  Why does the government need to drop the gold standard? Why does it happen so many times? I am under the impression that it is the gold standard that is flawed. After all, it didn't fail for a lack of trying. It was adopted and abandoned so many times. What surprises me is that people think that the problem is evil/incompetent governments mismanaging the currency. Wouldn't it be more productive to think of reasons why such mismanagement is inevitable instead of just sweeping it under the rug? Greece did austerity and it didn't work. If Greece hadn't done austerity, it could have gotten a few more years of 5% growth. Austerity ended up increasing indebtedness instead of reducing it by massively reducing the GDP of Greece. It's only rational to "mismanage" your economy away from such a financial crisis. The real question should be, why is growth required every single year? Why can't we just stand still for a year and then pick up growth again? In my opinion it is quite simple. Savings and debts must equal in the global economy. So if the government introduces a debt brake, the private sector must reduce the amount of savings it holds. If those savings are held as cash, the government can't do anything about it. It can't just recall the bank notes. So debt can't go down. If it does anyway, then the money that is currency circulating, moving around from person to person is saved as cash until the amount of money that is actively circulating shrinks so much that daily transactions can't be made. That is what recessions are. A sudden malfunction in the medium of exchange function of money.
LargeWu 5y ago
In addition to that I would add it needs to be a real store of value. Over any moderate timescale (a few years, say), it should reasonably maintain its value over that period. Swings of 40% purchasing power are unacceptable for a useful currency. Sure, bitcoin maximalists love to point out that if you bought it a year ago, it's up XXX%. But what if I bought near its high value? Not so good a proposition then.
- imtringued 4y ago
  Please stop with the money illusion. Numbers on a balance sheet don't store anything. People do. Companies do. Governments do. Agreements between those sectors are needed to store value. Real value is stored in the warehouse, in the sewer pipes and roads, in the heads of the government officials and so on.
- n_io 5y ago
  Is the money in your bank account a real store of value? Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? I’m not arguing for bitcoin either way. But I implore you to take a hard look at your definition of real value in a system with inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.”
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    > Do you not notice what’s been happening to it at an accelerated pace over the last 30 years? This ^^^ Right now, if you're willing to buy in decent quantity you can still get 90% constitutional silver at only $28.64/$1 face value. https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/ https://www.jmbullion.com/90-silver-coins-1-fv/
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    > inherent inflation that forces you to speculate in order to preserve any “real value.” Wow, also this! Say inflation is 8.5%, and you're holding an ounce of gold, then that gold raises by 8.5% in kind, you are still losing value as now you have to pay taxes on the 8.5% gained even though you didn't really gain anything.

throwaway82652 5y ago

No it didn't. Cryptocurrency is not "sound money" in any way because it's not backed by anything, in the case of proof-of-work coins it's only "backed" by random people solving random pointless math puzzles. Proof-of-stake is even worse because that's only backed by how much money people have already invested into the system.

cuteboy19 5y ago

Remind me how many cryptocurrencies were brred into existence the last year? Bitcoin merely replaces corrupt politics with even more corrupt politics (El Presidente Nayib Bukele for example)

imtringued 4y ago

"Sound money" I actually don't know what that is supposed to mean. You know, I am tired of these word games. Democratic People's Republic of Korea sounds cool until you realize that this is the official name of North Korea which has absolutely no relationship with democracy. In theory sound money would imply a money system that acknowledges the existence of the real world and human needs instead of deferring to theoretical models that are known to diverge from reality. Since money is capturing reality perfectly, it introduces no representational errors i.e. money that is in your bank account actually represents the capability to purchase a good or service immediately. Gold does not do this, unless you want to exchange your gold certificates (gold standard) for gold. When people save gold by putting it under their mattress, they effectively shifted their production schedule ahead, i.e. they produced today and they shifted their consumption schedule back, i.e. they consume later. The problem with this approach is that they are not asking anyone, whether they are willing to switch roles. By that I mean, is there anyone who agrees to consume now and produce later? If nobody made such an agreement then you will be surprised to hear that there is less produced than you planned to consume in the future, after all, you didn't tell anybody, nor did anyone approach you and explicitly gave you permission to consume in the future. There is increased demand and you get inflation. At some point people start working again and end up overproducing, there will be deflation. This mismatch in the consumption and production schedule is the cause of inflation or deflation over the short term with a gold standard. Sound money does not solve the problem. In fact, it is the root of speculation. If Bitcoin is sound money then the world doesn't need sound money. It needs money that isn't divorced from reality. It needs money that rewards planning ahead. It needs money that signals both abundance and scarcity of capital. It also needs to account for capital depreciation of idle capital and the loss of time of the unemployed.