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> how about paying employees adequately to a point where they don't have to work multiple full time jobs at a time We aren't talking about people holding mulit

by jstx1 5y ago

> how about paying employees adequately to a point where they don't have to work multiple full time jobs at a time We aren't talking about people holding mulitple low-paying jobs to make ends meet. It's mostly people in well payed positions taking advantage of being remote.

gregjor 5y ago
Explain how that changes anything. Does an employer somehow have the right to limit the income of employees because they are supposedly well-paid? If someone can get two jobs done successfully who exactly are they taking advantage of?
- jstx1 5y ago
  I don't think they have a right to limit the employees' income but they do have a right to demand full time work when they're paying for it. It's a tricky problem that I don't necessarily have an answer to. My point was that it's misleading to compare people who have to work multiple jobs to survive with people who are making hundreds of thousands at each job. Example from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29784608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29784608: > As far as the money goes, my math goes like this: > - 1 job: 250-300K cash, 250-300K equity (at the high end, higher if I moved to management) > - 4 jobs: My current situation is 225K avg cash (including bonuses) per job, 100K avg equity per job You can't look at this and say (like the GP comment did) "how about paying employees adequately".
  - gregjor 5y ago
    The employer can reasonably expect to get the work they pay for. Professional and creative employees usually get paid for results and meeting goals, not for warming a chair for eight hours. The employer can use cameras and keystroke loggers to make sure they get their eight hours a day — Upwork offers this “service” and I’ve heard of employers doing it. That would be a big morale booster and show of trust from the employer. It’s up to the employer to set clear performance expectations and measurements, then handle employees who don’t meet those expectations as a job performance problem. If the employer can’t do that basic management work, preferring to pry and control and intimidate their employees into submission, they deserve what they get. I don’t understand the argument “They are already well-paid so they shouldn’t look to make more money.” Try that on the C-suite execs who sit on multiple corporate boards.
    - jstx1 5y ago
      > It’s up to the employer to set clear performance expectations and measurements, then handle employees who don’t meet those expectations as a job performance problem. Yes, and that's the question that OP is asking - how do you set those expectations and measurements. It's a starting point for the whole conversation, not the end of it. > I don’t understand the argument “They are already well-paid so they shouldn’t look to make more money.” I've never made this argument or seen anyone else in the thread make this argument.
      - gregjor 5y ago
        The OP didn’t ask how to measure employee performance or set expectations and goals. They asked how to identify employees who had multiple jobs. > First of all, I'd like to figure out how we can identify someone working more than we are aware of. Generally it would be fine for me (/us) what people do in their non-work time, but if it affects our work, then it's not acceptable. So how can we identify such a situation? The question indicates the OP doesn’t have a way to measure performance, and instead focuses on identifying employees who might have other jobs. > I've never made this argument or seen anyone else in the thread make this argument. I must have misunderstood what you meant by this: > We aren't talking about people holding mulitple low-paying jobs to make ends meet. It's mostly people in well payed positions taking advantage of being remote. One could read “taking advantage of being remote” more than one way, but in the context I read it as people already paid well taking advantage of their employer.
        NaTopp 5y ago
        > The OP didn’t ask how to measure employee performance or set expectations and goals. They asked how to identify employees who had multiple jobs. While this statement is true, I'm nonetheless interested in a good ways to measure and agree on performance metrics. But please metrics that do not affect (especially the remote) in a negative way. Personally I'm not so much of a fan to put number of people's performances, especially in development, which makes it really hard some times.
        ttoinou 5y ago
  - iExploder 5y ago
    I was writing in the context of Europe as OP mentioned the company is located in Europe. In that context you can take your math and divide by 10 to get the mainland EU average for software engineer salary (~40k). With up to 50% tax rate gives incentive to have multiple jobs if your diet consists more than of plain yogurt and bread.
    - impjohn 5y ago
      I do believe your estimation is more correct than the numbers usually thrown around (80k-100k). Those are for shiny new job openings, and the majority of SWE in EU (just my gut feeling from personal observation) do not like to (or cant) switch jobs very frequently, driving the effective average much closer to 40k gross income per year.
rapjr9 5y ago
Those "well payed positions" have had flat salaries for decades, same as every other non-C-suite job, at least until recently (and now we have inflation eating salary increases). Working one job to support kids, a house, and a stay-at-home partner used to be possible. Not any longer. If your partner can't work or you'd prefer to have more attention paid to raising the kids, then two simultaneous jobs for the wage earner seems like a requirement today. Or you could choose to live like a common laborer, cheap old house, beater for a car, having to shop carefully on a budget. The middle class is not what it used to be, although you are encouraged to think it is [citation needed :-)]
- impjohn 5y ago
  Seems to be a local minima in Europe that for a family to have enough resources, both partners need to have careers and full-time jobs. However two careers do not mix very well with a family perspective and having kids. Then some people wonder why the birth rates in EU are falling rapidly..

by jstx1 5y ago

gregjor 5y ago

Explain how that changes anything. Does an employer somehow have the right to limit the income of employees because they are supposedly well-paid? If someone can get two jobs done successfully who exactly are they taking advantage of?

jstx1 5y ago
I don't think they have a right to limit the employees' income but they do have a right to demand full time work when they're paying for it. It's a tricky problem that I don't necessarily have an answer to. My point was that it's misleading to compare people who have to work multiple jobs to survive with people who are making hundreds of thousands at each job. Example from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29784608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29784608: > As far as the money goes, my math goes like this: > - 1 job: 250-300K cash, 250-300K equity (at the high end, higher if I moved to management) > - 4 jobs: My current situation is 225K avg cash (including bonuses) per job, 100K avg equity per job You can't look at this and say (like the GP comment did) "how about paying employees adequately".
- gregjor 5y ago
  The employer can reasonably expect to get the work they pay for. Professional and creative employees usually get paid for results and meeting goals, not for warming a chair for eight hours. The employer can use cameras and keystroke loggers to make sure they get their eight hours a day — Upwork offers this “service” and I’ve heard of employers doing it. That would be a big morale booster and show of trust from the employer. It’s up to the employer to set clear performance expectations and measurements, then handle employees who don’t meet those expectations as a job performance problem. If the employer can’t do that basic management work, preferring to pry and control and intimidate their employees into submission, they deserve what they get. I don’t understand the argument “They are already well-paid so they shouldn’t look to make more money.” Try that on the C-suite execs who sit on multiple corporate boards.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    > It’s up to the employer to set clear performance expectations and measurements, then handle employees who don’t meet those expectations as a job performance problem. Yes, and that's the question that OP is asking - how do you set those expectations and measurements. It's a starting point for the whole conversation, not the end of it. > I don’t understand the argument “They are already well-paid so they shouldn’t look to make more money.” I've never made this argument or seen anyone else in the thread make this argument.
    - gregjor 5y ago
      The OP didn’t ask how to measure employee performance or set expectations and goals. They asked how to identify employees who had multiple jobs. > First of all, I'd like to figure out how we can identify someone working more than we are aware of. Generally it would be fine for me (/us) what people do in their non-work time, but if it affects our work, then it's not acceptable. So how can we identify such a situation? The question indicates the OP doesn’t have a way to measure performance, and instead focuses on identifying employees who might have other jobs. > I've never made this argument or seen anyone else in the thread make this argument. I must have misunderstood what you meant by this: > We aren't talking about people holding mulitple low-paying jobs to make ends meet. It's mostly people in well payed positions taking advantage of being remote. One could read “taking advantage of being remote” more than one way, but in the context I read it as people already paid well taking advantage of their employer.
      - NaTopp 5y ago
        > The OP didn’t ask how to measure employee performance or set expectations and goals. They asked how to identify employees who had multiple jobs. While this statement is true, I'm nonetheless interested in a good ways to measure and agree on performance metrics. But please metrics that do not affect (especially the remote) in a negative way. Personally I'm not so much of a fan to put number of people's performances, especially in development, which makes it really hard some times.
      - ttoinou 5y ago
- iExploder 5y ago
  I was writing in the context of Europe as OP mentioned the company is located in Europe. In that context you can take your math and divide by 10 to get the mainland EU average for software engineer salary (~40k). With up to 50% tax rate gives incentive to have multiple jobs if your diet consists more than of plain yogurt and bread.
  - impjohn 5y ago
    I do believe your estimation is more correct than the numbers usually thrown around (80k-100k). Those are for shiny new job openings, and the majority of SWE in EU (just my gut feeling from personal observation) do not like to (or cant) switch jobs very frequently, driving the effective average much closer to 40k gross income per year.

rapjr9 5y ago

Those "well payed positions" have had flat salaries for decades, same as every other non-C-suite job, at least until recently (and now we have inflation eating salary increases). Working one job to support kids, a house, and a stay-at-home partner used to be possible. Not any longer. If your partner can't work or you'd prefer to have more attention paid to raising the kids, then two simultaneous jobs for the wage earner seems like a requirement today. Or you could choose to live like a common laborer, cheap old house, beater for a car, having to shop carefully on a budget. The middle class is not what it used to be, although you are encouraged to think it is [citation needed :-)]

impjohn 5y ago
Seems to be a local minima in Europe that for a family to have enough resources, both partners need to have careers and full-time jobs. However two careers do not mix very well with a family perspective and having kids. Then some people wonder why the birth rates in EU are falling rapidly..