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U.S. judge says Samsung tablets infringe Apple patents

24 points by ssclafani 15y ago

nextparadigms 15y ago
"A U.S. judge said Samsung's Galaxy tablets infringe Apple's iPad patents," "but also that Apple might have a problem establishing the validity of its patents." So which is it? If they don't think the patents are valid, why they saying Samsung is infringing on them? Are they saying Samsung is infringing on "possibly non-valid patents" ? Because that's how it sounds like to me.
- Steko 15y ago
  That seems to be exactly what she's saying: Samsung appears to infringe on the patent(s)* but the patent(s)* may appear obvious to her and unlikely to stand up to reexamination which would make the injunction less likely. Keep in mind she's just ruling on the injunction so it's not the final determination of infringement/invalidity. The injunction requires her to make some preliminary indication of how strong Apple's case is. * Also it's not clear if any of that applies to the design patents. "At the hearing on Thursday in a San Jose, California federal court, Koh also said she would deny Apple's request for an injunction based on one of Apple's so-called "utility" patents. She did not say whether she would grant the injunction based on three other Apple "design" patents. Koh characterized her thoughts on the utility patent as "tentative" but said she would issue a formal order "fairly promptly."
  - cheald 15y ago
    Can a judge invalidate patents as being obvious? Or can only the USPTO do that?
    - ahlatimer 15y ago
      Yes, the courts can invalidate a patent for failing to meet the burden of non-obviousness.
- ahlatimer 15y ago
  There are two primary questions: A) Did Samsung infringe on Apple's patents? and B) Are Apple's patents valid? Both A and B must be true for Apple to win the case, and the court can rule on those two issues separately. For instance, the court could rule in favor of Samsung because they found Samsung was not infringing on Apple's patents, but leave the patents intact if B is satisfied. They could also rule in Samsung's favor because Apple's patents were invalid.
jaypreneur 15y ago
I don't see how Apple could win. A "utility" patent? On the design. Seriously... am I the only one who thinks those are ridiculous patents? It looks like I suppose Samsung is infringing on the patent, but I really hope the patents don't stand up.
- Steko 15y ago
  The utility and design patents are not the same.
Steko 15y ago
http://gigaom.com/apple/judge-samsung-does-infringe-apples-u-s-patents/ http://gigaom.com/apple/judge-samsung-does-infringe-apples-u...: "In a tweet from the proceedings, Reuters’ Dan Levine said that Koh “held both tablets above her head, one in each hand,” and “asked Samsung lawyers to identify which was which.” Levine said it took Samsung’s legal team “a while to do so.” This, and repeated references made by Koh about how “similar” the Apple and Samsung tablets appear could indicate that she feels Apple’s “design” patents have more validity than those related to “utility”." Samsung just needs to fire all it's lawyers and legal department. They should have differentiated their products more and stand to lose billions if this injunction is issued. Gross incompetence. Ironically it's HTC not Apple that stands to benefit the most.
- nextparadigms 15y ago
  I like how in the picture they open the app drawer for Galaxy Tab to make it look more like iPad. The app drawer is not the default view on Galaxy Tab.
  - Steko 15y ago
    Is that the same ui view that Samsung put on the Galaxy Tab packaging? Ex: http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-galaxy-tab-review.jpg http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-gala...
    - yohui 15y ago
      > Is that the same ui view that Samsung put on the Galaxy Tab packaging? Ex: http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-galaxy-tab-review.jpg http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-gala... That's the older 7-inch Galaxy Tab. Which looks even less like the iPad; more like the Kindle Fire than anything else. This is the packaging for the Galaxy Tab 10.1: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51huPpEUIHL.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51huPpEUIHL.jpg I too have noticed that most all the images of the Galaxy Tab we've seen associated with these legal cases have the app drawer pulled up.
shaggyfrog 15y ago
"Apple and Samsung are engaged in a bruising legal battle that includes more than 20 cases in 10 countries as the two jostle for the top spot in the smartphone and tablet markets." Apple isn't "jostling" with anyone in the "tablet market"; they outsell the rest if the industry combined by, what, 20-to-1? 30-to-1?
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  "Smartphone and tablet markets" Android outsells iPhone in the smartphone market, apple outsells android in the tablet market. Jostling is a perfectly adequate descriptor for that situation. P.S. It's probably no longer sufficiently accurate to describe the iPad as outselling the rest of the industry combined by 20:1 given what we know about Kindle Fire pre-order figures.
  - shaggyfrog 15y ago
    There is no tablet market, only an iPad market. You can't just chain together as many markets as you wish with the word "and" to the smartphone market. Why not say they are also "jostling" in the online services, advertising, flat screen, and whatever else market while you're at it? It's a completely disingenuous statement. P.S. A recent story put iPad at about 97% of tablet browsing share. I can't get to it right now on my iPhone. Preorders are nice but just about any objective measure (including those that include channel stuffing on behalf of the rest of the industry) we've seen so far has shown total iPad dominance of the tablet space.
    - InclinedPlane 15y ago
      Amazon is selling about 50k android tablets a day. That sounds like a market to me.
      - shaggyfrog 15y ago
        It's a start, sure, but it's a looooong way to how many iPads Apple has sold already, which amounted to 9 million last quarter alone.
zacharycohn 15y ago
If Samsung is infringing on the iPad design, pretty much every Flatscreen TV/monitor manufacturer ever should probably start hiring lawyers, because I can't tell the difference between a Sony or a Panasonic monitor at a glance either.
- wnight 15y ago
  What a waste. We've got multiple unjust wars, we're bailing out wall-street yet again, and this is what our courts find time to do - waste the time and effort of a productive company like Samsung over "design patents". We're innovation hostile. Even our "best" companies like Apple are trying desperately to build themselves a parasitic position on the industry instead of trying to build new, better, technology. It's no wonder all the money has flowed overseas, so has the prosperous mindset that made it.

24 points by ssclafani 15y ago

"A U.S. judge said Samsung's Galaxy tablets infringe Apple's iPad patents," "but also that Apple might have a problem establishing the validity of its patents." So which is it? If they don't think the patents are valid, why they saying Samsung is infringing on them? Are they saying Samsung is infringing on "possibly non-valid patents" ? Because that's how it sounds like to me.

Steko 15y ago
That seems to be exactly what she's saying: Samsung appears to infringe on the patent(s)* but the patent(s)* may appear obvious to her and unlikely to stand up to reexamination which would make the injunction less likely. Keep in mind she's just ruling on the injunction so it's not the final determination of infringement/invalidity. The injunction requires her to make some preliminary indication of how strong Apple's case is. * Also it's not clear if any of that applies to the design patents. "At the hearing on Thursday in a San Jose, California federal court, Koh also said she would deny Apple's request for an injunction based on one of Apple's so-called "utility" patents. She did not say whether she would grant the injunction based on three other Apple "design" patents. Koh characterized her thoughts on the utility patent as "tentative" but said she would issue a formal order "fairly promptly."
- cheald 15y ago
  Can a judge invalidate patents as being obvious? Or can only the USPTO do that?
  - ahlatimer 15y ago
    Yes, the courts can invalidate a patent for failing to meet the burden of non-obviousness.
ahlatimer 15y ago
There are two primary questions: A) Did Samsung infringe on Apple's patents? and B) Are Apple's patents valid? Both A and B must be true for Apple to win the case, and the court can rule on those two issues separately. For instance, the court could rule in favor of Samsung because they found Samsung was not infringing on Apple's patents, but leave the patents intact if B is satisfied. They could also rule in Samsung's favor because Apple's patents were invalid.

jaypreneur 15y ago

I don't see how Apple could win. A "utility" patent? On the design. Seriously... am I the only one who thinks those are ridiculous patents? It looks like I suppose Samsung is infringing on the patent, but I really hope the patents don't stand up.

Steko 15y ago
The utility and design patents are not the same.

Steko 15y ago

http://gigaom.com/apple/judge-samsung-does-infringe-apples-u-s-patents/ http://gigaom.com/apple/judge-samsung-does-infringe-apples-u...: "In a tweet from the proceedings, Reuters’ Dan Levine said that Koh “held both tablets above her head, one in each hand,” and “asked Samsung lawyers to identify which was which.” Levine said it took Samsung’s legal team “a while to do so.” This, and repeated references made by Koh about how “similar” the Apple and Samsung tablets appear could indicate that she feels Apple’s “design” patents have more validity than those related to “utility”." Samsung just needs to fire all it's lawyers and legal department. They should have differentiated their products more and stand to lose billions if this injunction is issued. Gross incompetence. Ironically it's HTC not Apple that stands to benefit the most.

nextparadigms 15y ago
I like how in the picture they open the app drawer for Galaxy Tab to make it look more like iPad. The app drawer is not the default view on Galaxy Tab.
- Steko 15y ago
  Is that the same ui view that Samsung put on the Galaxy Tab packaging? Ex: http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-galaxy-tab-review.jpg http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-gala...
  - yohui 15y ago
    > Is that the same ui view that Samsung put on the Galaxy Tab packaging? Ex: http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-galaxy-tab-review.jpg http://www.photokina-show.com/news_images/00812_samsung-gala... That's the older 7-inch Galaxy Tab. Which looks even less like the iPad; more like the Kindle Fire than anything else. This is the packaging for the Galaxy Tab 10.1: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51huPpEUIHL.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51huPpEUIHL.jpg I too have noticed that most all the images of the Galaxy Tab we've seen associated with these legal cases have the app drawer pulled up.

shaggyfrog 15y ago

"Apple and Samsung are engaged in a bruising legal battle that includes more than 20 cases in 10 countries as the two jostle for the top spot in the smartphone and tablet markets." Apple isn't "jostling" with anyone in the "tablet market"; they outsell the rest if the industry combined by, what, 20-to-1? 30-to-1?

InclinedPlane 15y ago
"Smartphone and tablet markets" Android outsells iPhone in the smartphone market, apple outsells android in the tablet market. Jostling is a perfectly adequate descriptor for that situation. P.S. It's probably no longer sufficiently accurate to describe the iPad as outselling the rest of the industry combined by 20:1 given what we know about Kindle Fire pre-order figures.
- shaggyfrog 15y ago
  There is no tablet market, only an iPad market. You can't just chain together as many markets as you wish with the word "and" to the smartphone market. Why not say they are also "jostling" in the online services, advertising, flat screen, and whatever else market while you're at it? It's a completely disingenuous statement. P.S. A recent story put iPad at about 97% of tablet browsing share. I can't get to it right now on my iPhone. Preorders are nice but just about any objective measure (including those that include channel stuffing on behalf of the rest of the industry) we've seen so far has shown total iPad dominance of the tablet space.
  - InclinedPlane 15y ago
    Amazon is selling about 50k android tablets a day. That sounds like a market to me.
    - shaggyfrog 15y ago
      It's a start, sure, but it's a looooong way to how many iPads Apple has sold already, which amounted to 9 million last quarter alone.

zacharycohn 15y ago

If Samsung is infringing on the iPad design, pretty much every Flatscreen TV/monitor manufacturer ever should probably start hiring lawyers, because I can't tell the difference between a Sony or a Panasonic monitor at a glance either.

wnight 15y ago
What a waste. We've got multiple unjust wars, we're bailing out wall-street yet again, and this is what our courts find time to do - waste the time and effort of a productive company like Samsung over "design patents". We're innovation hostile. Even our "best" companies like Apple are trying desperately to build themselves a parasitic position on the industry instead of trying to build new, better, technology. It's no wonder all the money has flowed overseas, so has the prosperous mindset that made it.