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I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has on this. This is an initial set of documentation, and we'll prioritize writing/creating more based on what is most
by nrp 5y ago
I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has on this. This is an initial set of documentation, and we'll prioritize writing/creating more based on what is most useful to enable Mainboard re-use.
- SSilver2k2 5y agoIncredible work.
- strohwueste 5y agoFirst of all great work! But did you also consider the step after re-use? What happens to the components and the materials in recycling?
- nrp 5y agoWe hope and expect that many of the re-use use cases can have longer lifetimes than a laptop normally would (e.g. a pfsense box that happily chugs away in a closet for a decade), but past that point, it enters the same disposition stream that electronics can safely be recycled through by consumers. We're working on making that experience easier by having the QR code on each module point to a page that includes local certified recyclers in the future.
- strohwueste 5y agoOk great that's already way better then most ;) if you're interested in a LCA let me know
- bobsmooth 5y agoAny plans to sell this or other mainboards separately?
- nrp 5y agoYep, the Mainboard is available as of today: https://frame.work/products/mainboard?v=FRANFG000A https://frame.work/products/mainboard?v=FRANFG000A
- delusional 5y agoWhen you select the different models of mainboard the order of the "Included", "Specs", and "Additional Information" options switch places. Just a minor UI thing.
- bobsmooth 5y ago$400 for a powerful SBC with consumer-level support and drivers is a pretty great price.
- ac29 5y agoSure but outside a laptop, laptop processors make much less sense. $400 gets you a motherboard and a desktop class processor that is significantly faster.
- yellowapple 5y agoThat desktop motherboard and CPU likely requires more power, more cooling, and a bigger case. I can see the "Framework motherboard as SBC" idea catch on for everything from set-top boxes (Steam Machines could make a comeback this way) to a poor man's blade server.
- fomine3 5y agoIt's better for SBC. Also laptop iGPU is better than desktop.
- rrss 5y agoBeing able to just buy something that works when you get it is a big plus IMO. I’ve tried a few times in the last year and finding parts (that are actually available) for a sub- $500 small-form-factor system seems to be beyond my capabilities :)
- gtvwill 5y agoJust want to chime in with some appreciation. Phenomenal work your doing for tech with ethics.
- thetinguy 5y agoCan it be used as a single board computer like a latte panda or raspberry pi, once you supply thing like memory.
- noveltyaccount 5y agoYes, and they open-sourced a 3D-printable case just for that purpose :) https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard/tree/main/Mechanical/Printable%20Case https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard/tree/main/Mec...
- JohnBooty 5y ago"We designed the Mainboard from the start as a standalone module to make upgrades easy in the Framework Laptop and to also work great as a high-performance single board computer"
- rubynerd 5y agoThis looks absolutely incredible, and given the supply issues with Intel's NUCs, couldn't have come at a better time! Do you have an estimate of when the Framework Marketplace will be available for UK customers? Currently Marketplace links redirect to the UK homepage, and is only accessible after manually selecting "United States" as a country.
- nrp 5y agoWe're currently setting up the logistics infrastructure for the Marketplace for UK and EU. We'll have waitlist functionality open sooner so that you can at least browse the product catalog though.
- rubynerd 5y agoAmazing — thank you! The experience is a little rough with the redirect, and I'd love it if I could put an email somewhere for a reminder when it launches. Otherwise though I'm really looking forward to ordering soon!
- gary_0 5y ago> All you need to do is insert memory, plug in a USB-C power adapter, and hit the tiny power button on-board, and you’ve got a powered-up computer. That's brilliant. Do you see potential for this becoming popular as a "Raspberry Pi on steroids"? Any future plans to encourage that kind of ecosystem?
- nrp 5y agoWe certainly hope so. As we look at the ~5 year view of this and have a substantial number of Mainboards in the wild that have been upgraded out of Framework Laptops, we want to do everything we can to foster an ecosystem of methods to re-use them. We actually announced a giveaway of 100 Mainboards to developers as part of the release today to help bootstrap this: https://forms.gle/RegGHe6R4H5cEstH9 https://forms.gle/RegGHe6R4H5cEstH9
- walterbell 5y agoThanks for supporting long-lived hardware. One existing favorite is the classic Lenovo X230/X430 series, which has seen several mods over the years, with a healthy resale market. Do you plan to offer Pro/Enterprise CPUs (Intel vPro, Ryzen Pro), for h/w security features like memory encryption or Windows secured core / VBS? For open-source firmware and kernel/hypervisor development, it would be good to have a serial port header.
- nrp 5y agoThe i7-1185G7 SKU supports vPro: https://frame.work/products/mainboard?v=FRANFG000C https://frame.work/products/mainboard?v=FRANFG000C We also have some additional debug support through a header that we've documented here: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController
- blackkat 5y agoAwesome idea! Looking forward to seeing the projects that come out of this giveaway, and I hope my idea gets selected as well :)
- goodpoint 5y agoAre all schematics, BoM, PCBs released with open licenses? Is anything patented? Would you welcome other companies making compatible components?
- gary_0 5y agoFrom the GitHub link: > licensed under CC BY 4.0 > All of this is a starting point for a broader set of open source Mainboard documentation to enable creation of fully compatible third-party Mainboards in the future. I don't see any full electronic schematics/BoM in the repo; they don't tell you how to replicate or modify the electronics, just how to fit the form factor.
- snvzz 5y agoIt'd help to include a copy of the license, rather than a link to some other website. Legally, it is a bit of an issue as the linked license could technically change. Technically, it prevents github from recognizing CC-BY-4.0 as the repository license.
- nrp 5y agoGood catch, we uploaded a LICENSE file.
- heavyset_go 5y agoI like the idea of x86 SBCs because of ARM SBC issues with the lack of SBSA, while x86 computers ship with ACPI support. Now when are the AMD mainboards coming? ;)
- ncmncm 5y agoYes, I am waiting for the AMD version, as well. No doubt a lot of us are. Gotta say I was disappointed when the first ones out were Intel.
- VTimofeenko 5y agoI'm in the same boat. When AMD mainboard will be out, I am planning to stuff the Intel one into a Fractal case and just have another server for the home server zoo.
- heavyset_go 5y agoSo was I, as I was in the market for a new computer when they came out. Hopefully they'll jump on Zen 4 when it comes out.
- user_7832 5y agoWill there be information on important parameters of the main board/PCB? I'm not exactly talking about physical dimensions or enclosure design itself - but as a mechanical engineer I have no idea what sort of safe flexural tolerance a PCB might have, or if there's some available data on shock and drop tolerances of the board. Also a quick qn 2 - any plans for a "smaller" board (maybe v2/later)? The current size is fine for a laptop but not ideal if someone is looking for building a tablet/small cyberdeck style device.
- nrp 5y agoGreat question on the additional parameters. I'll take that back to our mechanical engineering team.
- sampleAccount1 5y ago
- user_7832 5y agoThanks!
- contingencies 5y agoMany of us prefer larger laptops and find 13.5" too small for regular use. If a larger body were developed there would presumably be space for additional battery in addition to a larger keyboard and screen, maybe even more ports or extra devices[0]. Alternatively the system could be used as a screen-tablet with a wireless keyboard. Were either of these form factor changes considered as a potential design path during development? Do you have any plans to provide these as options in future? Presumably other than sourcing the panel, larger inbuilt keyboard and machining alternate cases neither option would be substantially difficult. [0] Expansion card program at https://community.frame.work/c/developer-program/expansion-card/90 https://community.frame.work/c/developer-program/expansion-c... shows ethernet, cellular, wireless charging.
- ncmncm 5y agoAgreed, I also am not interested in anything not at least close to 16 inches.
- ncmncm 5y ago("That's what she said"?)
- andreareina 5y agoMore ports would require another mainboard sku. But yeah I'd love a 15+ inch with 6 ports and more battery.
- contingencies 5y agoWhy? The ports don't need to be independent host-side channels. Worst case the addition of one extra embedded USB-C hub should allow almost any number of ports and devices to be added.
- quickcheck 5y agoAre there plans to release full schematics to help with board level repair?
- nrp 5y agoWe're able to make schematics and board views available to repair shops, but not to individual end users: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/availability-of-schematics-and-boardviews-BJMZ6EAu https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/availability-of-schem...
- rkagerer 5y agoWhy not?
- colejohnson66 5y agoMy first guess would be NDAs
- stephen_g 5y agoI wouldn't expect so. All you get of third party parts on the schematic is the names of the pins, and that generally isn't kept secret. Sometimes the detailed functional descriptions of each pin are, but generally not anything you'd see from the schematic. If you look at the Open Compute project, there's full schematics available for boards that have far more interesting parts than what would be on this.
- userbinator 5y agoIntel has become notoriously secretive with their documentation over the years, so I think that is very much the issue here. The 8086/8 were very open, but they started closing off little bits at a time after that. "Appendix H" in the P5 era was the first major sign of it. Bits and pieces have leaked out over time, but they still want to keep a lot of it secret. For comparison, someone has made an entire 386 PC motherboard himself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29273829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29273829 I suspect there's enough information out there publicly to do everything up to perhaps a PIII (Socket 370 era) or thereabouts, but it starts being much harder beyond that.
- sras-me 5y agoNot exactly on this topic, but when can we hope you to start shipping to India?
- antattack 5y agoWill BIOS support PCIe network card (with PCIe extender) connected to PCIe port? How many lines is it?
- moondev 5y agoIt's a laptop mainboard, there is no PCIe slot. Or do you mean nvme -> PCIe adaptor? Another option is to put the nic inside a tb3 pcie enclosure and connect that. There are 4 thunderbolt ports.
- antattack 5y agoFrom what I could find tb3 to PCIe is very expensive. NVME is basically a protocol on top of PCIe with m.2 connector. Here's an example of m.2 to PCIe x4 adapter: https://www.delock.com/produkt/64131/merkmale.html https://www.delock.com/produkt/64131/merkmale.html If adapter is possible we could use 4 port gig adapter for a nice pfsense/opnsense router or a VM server.
- moondev 5y agoUnderstood, I actually have a m.2 to PCIe adaptor on hand now that I use with success with my honeycomb lx2. I'll test a nic for you with the framework m.2 port.
- mewse-hn 5y agoNo questions but I'm very impressed there is a 3D printed case in this repository and it's designed for home 3D printers (ie. split into smaller parts, printable without supports)
- Sirened 5y agoAre there plans to release documentation (not just pinouts but protocol?) for other elements on the board? One of the frustrations with working with ARM SoCs is having peripherals that you just can't talk to because the vendor hasn't released documentation for it.
- nrp 5y agoCould you share which peripherals you see a need for additional documentation on? In most cases where a specific IC is controlling a peripheral or interface, we're at the mercy of the IC vendor or relevant standards body (VESA, PCI-SIG, USB-IF) to decide what is public.
- TheDudeMan 5y agoAre there hardware off switches for any cameras and mics?
- josephcsible 5y agohttps://frame.work/laptop https://frame.work/laptop says "a hardware privacy switch lets you physically cut off power to the image sensor" and "The dual MEMS microphones are connected to a hardware privacy switch". So the laptop definitely has them, but I'm not sure if they're part of the mainboard.
- nrp 5y agoYep, they are actually part of the webcam module: https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam
- poser-boy 5y agoIt's cool that the repo has 3D printable cases. But are there any plans of officially making and selling a "ThinkPad killer" chassis where the laptop is more durable, has TrackPoint, and classic keyboard?
- commoner 5y agoI'd love to see a TrackPoint option, and so would many other prospective customers. https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026 Lenovo is doing the opposite of what Framework is doing by soldering down memory and making ThinkPads less repairable. Framework has a great opportunity to take in disillusioned ThinkPad customers who are only staying with Lenovo because of the TrackPoint.
- oogetyboogety 5y agoMore durable being the key point here. Anecdotally I remember reading horror stories once ppl upgrade about the cooling.
- Scramblejams 5y ago+1. I badly want a modern interpretation of a Thinkpad that is true to its IBM roots. 7 rows, trackpoint, 3 mouse buttons, toughness, drain holes, and a silly amount of ports. Edit: And I want my ThinkLight back! It's not enough to light the keys from underneath -- the ThinkLight was great for giving a little glow around the laptop to light the working area up a bit when in a darkened room. I did a lot of homework under a ThinkLight. And extra points if we can make it shine in red!
- wanderingmind 5y agoSorry for the tangent, but any plans to open sales to Australia and New Zealand soon? I personally know a handful of people who will buy this and the laptop if given a chance.
- teruakohatu 5y agoI am also waiting to get a Framework in NZ. Hopefully they will partner with a local company to provide support. Having a repairable laptop is all very well, but not if we had to wait 6 weeks for the part to arrive.
- girvo 5y agoI'm one of them. Such a shame that we can't get them here in Aus. I very nearly ordered it through a re-shipper system. If AusPost still did theirs, I would've!
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- nirui 5y agoNot really a Mainboard related question..... But I also wonder if it is possible for Framework to offer a global shipping option? I would totally handle import tax and customs fees etc myself if such option becomes available.
- oaiey 5y agoAny component which has an electricity or wireless "uplink" will require regulatory approval before entering a market. Just "shipping" is not good enough if you are a hardware producer who cares whether the product can be legally operated in a country.
- nirui 5y agoUnderstood. However, I think maybe there are ways to achieve delivery even if the manufacturer is not operating in the destination country? Maybe through a third-party partner such as Amazon? This Chromebook (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YMM4YC1/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YMM4YC1/) for example, ships from the US and can be delivered straight to my hand even Google don't actually operate here. Currently, if I want to buy the laptop, I have to hire a courier company to proxy the package (from their US warehouse to the destination country), the company will handle import and customs. But given the nature of the business, the package might be damaged or lost, and when it did, I might only get the courier fee refunded. Amazon on the other hand, almost never fail, and even if they did fail, I can still get all my money back. I would totally pay a small premium to get my laptop and other hardware safely delivered. So... I hope Framework consider this.
- juanci_to 5y agoHello! Happy Framework laptop owner here. Any plan to release an AMD alternative mainboard?
- devmor 5y agoVery interested in this too. I would actually replace the Intel mainboard in my framework laptop and then use it for something else.
- belter 5y agoHow is the thermal management? It's a notoriously difficult part of a design. Thinkpads for example tend to excel and Dell tends to fail miserably. Does it get very hot in your lap for example?
- juanci_to 5y agoAccording to the thermometer right now: 50°C Sometimes it reaches 75% It's not hot by computer standards per se, but since it's built out of aluminum, there are moments when you wouldn't want to have it on your lap because it would be somewhat painful. Specially with some heavy compilation going on
- kfrzcode 5y agoHere's a great discussion in the community forum about AMD alternatives, and why the company, especially at such an early stage, might refrain from discussion, etc. I don't speak for the company, just a fan. https://community.frame.work/t/amd-cpus-an-open-letter-to-the-framework-team/7036/9 https://community.frame.work/t/amd-cpus-an-open-letter-to-th...
- cbsks 5y agoAre schematics available? Also, thank you very much. I love my Framework laptop!
- pvsukale3 5y ago2 questions: 1) When are you planning to launch in India? 2) Have you thought about launching your own Linux distro optimized for Framework? You could upgrade Linux desktop experience. That would be awesome.
- icy 5y ago+1 for India. I'd really like to get one.
- ibz 5y ago+1 for own Linux distro. Apple always had the advantage of controlling both the hardware and the software. Also, in the Linux space, I had amazing experience with Raspberry Pi OS. Not only that it works well out of the box, but being the OS most people use on that specific hardware makes searching for answers to any issues much easier. Ideally though it would be as close as possible to an existing distro and only include patches needed for good Framework support.
- pvsukale3 5y agoYes, that could be easier to rather develop it from scratch.
- amelius 5y ago> +1 for own Linux distro. It's a bad idea to force users to use one distro. There are many users who run NixOS, and others prefer Ubuntu, or even Gentoo. > Apple always had the advantage of controlling both the hardware and the software. Controlling my own hardware is exactly what I look for when buying a laptop.
- samhw 5y ago> Apple always had the advantage of controlling both the hardware and the software. And this is exactly why anyone who likes that approach can & will buy an Apple laptop. Framework is clearly going for the opposite of that market. Instead of being a (necessarily) worse clone of Apple, I think it makes sense for them to cater to the market they are clearly aimed at, which is not people who are happy with a walled-garden system.
- marius_k 5y agoWhen does it come available to the rest of EU?
- pjerem 5y agowow that is so nice. Please please please keep the control of your company. The world desperately needs companies like yours.
- supermatt 5y agoNote that you'll need some fasteners to install everything (see https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fasteners+Guide/106 for all fastener types) - 5x Mainboard fasteners - M1.6 1.5mm fastener with a 5.5mm diameter T5 head and 0.6mm thread pitch - 3x Audio Board and WiFi card fasteners - M2 3.0mm fastener with a 4.5mm diameter T5 head and 0.7mm thread pitch These arent ISO metric thread pitches. Why not use standard fasteners? I cant find these to buy anywhere online (even with different heads) - even your own website doesnt stock them... EDIT: looks like im not the only one to ask - theres an unanswered question on that guide since Apr 2 asking the same thing.
- nrp 5y agoThis is most likely an error in our fasteners guide (which I wrote, so it's on me). I just sanity checked one of the M2 fasteners with calipers, and it does indeed follow the ISO standard 0.4mm pitch. We'll double check the numbers we listed for pitch. For the 3D printed cases, for simplicity we didn't design in threaded inserts, so you can use self-tapping M2 or M1.6 fasteners with approximately the right length and head size and it'll work.
- thot_experiment 5y agoI find under-sizing the holes a bit and hitting the screws with a heat gun before picking them up with a magnetic screwdriver and screwing them in works really well.
- mschuster91 5y agoUndersizing holes is just a brilliant way to ask for cracks down the road.
- pvillano 5y agonot if the screw melts the plastic, the same way heated threaded insert would?
- supermatt 5y ago
- krolden 5y agoWhy no modular GPU?
- sandreas 5y agoDid you ever consider ECC Memory support? This would make SOHO workstations and storage appliances interesting to build with your board...
- wheybags 5y agoI don't think intel mobile CPUs support ecc
- codewiz 5y agoAny plans to adopt Coreboot or provide documentation and support to developers who want to port Coreboot to your mainboards?
- nrp 5y agoWe've handed three systems that can boot unsigned bootloaders to folks in the coreboot community. Our plan in the near term is to help them create a shim loader that can be signed to run on any Framework Laptop, which then enables anyone to do further coreboot development.
- belter 5y agoCongratulations on the project. Any plans for a 17 Inch screen?
- rvanlaar 5y agoThe link https://frame.work/marketplace/mainboards https://frame.work/marketplace/mainboards seems broken. It redirects me to https://frame.work/nl/en https://frame.work/nl/en
- AggroVanGogh 5y agoSame here when accessing from the UK - marketplace links just redirect back to the main laptop purchasing page.
- occamschainsaw 5y agoHi Nirav, This might be a tangent. Do you have any plans for eink display modules for the Framework laptop? I know it’s a niche and the eink panels are expensive, but it would be amazing for a portable machine.
- vaylian 5y agoI'd also be interested in this. But at the same time, I guess it's more likely that a third party will produce this, because Framework has other priorities. For those who might wonder why eInk would be cool: Much better reading experience on the screen and insanely long battery life.
- rcoder 5y agoI’m a huge eink display fan, to the point of owning multiple tablet-shaped devices with larger EPDs. I agree that the reading experience for effectively static text and b/w images is great, but once you introduce any scrolling or transitions it quickly becomes worse than a standard LCD. UIs really need to be optimized for eink, just like they should be designed differently for smartphones, big desktop displays, and screen readers or other assistive tech. W.r.t. power: I don’t think EPD magically runs on less power _while refreshing_. So again, if you are mostly displaying static text and figures —- like in an ebook reader —- it’s great. If you’re constantly repainting the UI, less so. As much as we may like to think programming is all about staring at walls of text in editor buffers we’ve carefully tuned for readability, IME at least I spend a lot of time switching between an editor, live view of my running app, documentation, log and trace views, etc. Neither a slow refresh (4-10 fps) with major ghosting or a glacially slow (<1 fps) one that’s clean is actually a very good trade off with most modern workflows. Including ones that are nominally about text, like coding.
- minimilian 5y agoWhen do you expect these computers will become coreboot compatible?
- zucker42 5y agoAre you limited in how much documentation you can release because of contracts or legal reasons? For example, if Framework or another company wanted to build a fully open source mainboard for an Intel or AMD processor would that be possible?
- a-dub 5y agoany chance there might be a thinkpad x/t series style case made for these? knocking off the mac is kinda cute, but mac laptop ergonomics and durability are terrible.
- clarkevans 5y agoI've got 2 questions unrelated to the mainboard. Will a matte screen be supported? Will a thinkpad style keyboard be available for the framework? Raynaud's syndrome makes trackpad sensing poor.
- walrus01 5y agoIs it possible to buy just the mainboard with CPU and heatsink/fan unit, for integration into one's own embedded system? Assuming the obvious need to supply the correct DC power and other connectors/IO interface pieces.
- softawre 5y agohttps://frame.work/products/mainboard?v=FRANFG000C https://frame.work/products/mainboard?v=FRANFG000C
- aae42 5y agoare there plans for AMD and Qualcomm based mainboards?