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HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

921 points by hrldcpr 4y ago

rdl 4y ago
Wow. I'm actively in the market for this service for something but will never do business with HackerRank, as they continued to use the same horrible abusive DMCA agent after they did this back in January. Once is "we made a bad choice in vendor", twice is we are horrible people ourselves.
Mohammatnur 4y ago
hrldcpr 4y ago
https://docs.sympy.org/ https://docs.sympy.org/ is down …seems like a lame move for a programming-oriented company. The takedown message is here – https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-15-hackerrank.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-1... And the offending page is archived here, I wonder what part they wanted removed – https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.sympy.org/latest/modules/solvers/solvers.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  What I suspect happened is that the HackerRank test legitimately (fair use) included parts of the docs (the exercise could’ve been about the library those docs are for), DMCA enforcement has been outsourced to the lowest bidder and these idiots just did a blanket search for some phrases from the test, found the official docs and DMCA’d it.
  - smorgusofborg 4y ago
    The CC licenses should probably be adjusted to make a DMCA attempt a permanent revocation of license. That way DMCAs can flow in the opposite direction and people can learn things.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      Realistically speaking, you’d still need to enforce breaches of whatever license you choose but most open-source projects don’t have the resources to pursue those cases. Maybe there’s a case for a consortium of open-source projects that can pool its resources and serve as an insurance policy to fight back against license violations or malicious/stupid DMCA takedowns.
      - smorgusofborg 4y ago
        Whenever you file a DMCA appeal with GitHub/etc you would have the option to file a takedown on the jack ass. Some projects doing it occasionally would trigger the right conservative fears at corporations to reduce the market.
      - anyfactor 4y ago
        We have so many organizations but in the last 2 decades nobody has thought of creating colloborative legal fund and insurance system to combat and in many cases enforce licensing violation. Open source projects should have a kind of union of their own. Then again I wonder if it would ever be possible because corporate money has became a key donation source and in many cases many OS projects themselves have become corporatized.
        sciurus 4y ago
        There are organizations that help with license enforcement, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy
        Nicksil 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy
  - g_p 4y ago
    This seems plausible. The only real solution here seems to be to find a way to hold HackerRank to account for this (in the most costly way possible), so they face an incentive to do meaningful due diligence and evaluate before partnering with someone that acts as their agent. Ultimately it wasn't them that did this, but unless they bear a significant cost from doing so, which causes them to pursue their DMCA agent for negligence or breach of contract (or whatever other remedy is available to them), I don't see this type of thing changing. Once a DMCA agent becomes a liability, the market will be forced to mature, and buyers will need to do due diligence to minimise their likelihood of being opened up to a large and costly battle as a result of the negligence of their agent.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- musicale 4y ago
  > I have taken fair use into consideration. Not really. Nor have you considered who the actual author and copyright holder is.
T3RMINATED 4y ago
"Someone has illegally copied our client's technical exams questions and answers from their official website https://www.hackerrank.com/ https://www.hackerrank.com/ and uploaded them on their platform without permission." WorthIT is worthless.
Andoryuuta 4y ago
This same DMCA company (WorthIT Solutions) previously tried to DMCA the php docs range function page on behalf of HackerRank [0]. Pretty crazy. [0]: https://www.mail-archive.com/php-webmaster@lists.php.net/msg14947.html https://www.mail-archive.com/php-webmaster@lists.php.net/msg...
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  One way for HackerRank to do the right thing would be to sue WorthIT for breach of contract and loss of reputation. Their contract must have included some requirements for due diligence on filing those notices, and having these bogus DMCA notices does hurt HackerRank’s reputation, especially with its target audience. Only way to make this stop is make companies like WorthIT feel financial pain from their actions.
  - blurbleblurble 4y ago
    There's also an argument to be made that this is on HackerRank. Just because they're using a contractor to do the dirty work doesn't excuse them from responsibility for this sloppiness.
    - paulgb 4y ago
      Especially given that the false takedown of the PHP docs dates back to January. Issuing false takedowns against organizations whose code you use for free is a pretty bad look. (It's also a pretty crummy product, I used to use it as an interviewer and am glad I no longer have to.)
      - rvivek 4y ago
        Sorry to hear. I just sent you a note. Appreciate your response.
      - threatofrain 4y ago
        May we hear more about why it’s a poor product?
fxtentacle 4y ago
I'm happy that this is now on the front page because that's how fraudulent DMCA requests get fixed :) The goodwill lost will now surely exceed the money they saved by not doing proper due diligence. I'm optimistic that HackerRank won't make the same mistake again and other companies might take notice, too.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  It would be nice if a lawyer got censured for this. That's how fraudulent DMCA takedowns should get fixed. It would also be nice if Github would implement instant restoration via counternotice as allowed by the DMCA. Implementing only half of the law enables this sort of abuse.
  - gurjeet 4y ago
    Github does provide pretty descriptive method of submitting in their dmca repository readme [1], and in every takedown notice, as well. [1]: github.com/github/dmca/ > Our help articles provide more details on our DMCA takedown policy and [how to file a counter notice][2]. [2]: https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-policies/guide-to-submitting-a-dmca-counter-notice https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-polic...
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      This is still an asymmetric, unfair process. Automatic takedowns from bad faith actors are catered to left and right but you have to negotiate a bureaucracy with manual review to get restoration. The DMCA doesn't require this to receive safe harbor protection. Provide a form where an up to date contact point can be submitted that you can forward to the plaintiff and then restore the content. It's that simple. They can deal with litigating the dispute from that point on and Github is not responsible.
  - runlevel1 4y ago
    You don't have to be a lawyer to send a DMCA takedown. Companies have historically gotten away with these reckless takedowns because the law just requires that "the complaining party has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law." (17 U.S.C. § 512(c)(3)(A)(v))[^1] In a recent 9th Circuit case, Lenz v. Universal Music Corp[^2], the court held that Lenz could sue Universal Music for a bad faith takedown. Specifically, "failure to [consider fair use] raises a triable issue as to whether the copyright holder formed a subjective good faith belief that the use was not authorized by law." However, proving that it was in bad faith could be tricky. Caveat: IANAL [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512#c_3_A_iv https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512#c_3_A_iv [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp.
paulgb 4y ago
> I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. Too bad these perjery-as-a-service companies never get held to account.
- unixfg 4y ago
  The notice I've seen from them lists their address as being in New Garden Town, Lahore, Pakistan. I don't expect they're worried about the repercussions.
  - eftychis 4y ago
    Perhaps, there should be a bond of some value necessary to be posted in such cases. If there is the appropriate money on the line, people suddenly think twice.
0des 4y ago
Why is a YC company not held to a better standard? This is poor form.
- jplasmeier 4y ago
  What makes you think YC companies have any different standards than the rest of the corporate world? If anything startups are deliberately held to a lower standard on the justification of “disruption”. YC is a way to make people money first and foremost. Don’t be shocked.
  - tedunangst 4y ago
    YC considers "no assholes" to be a competitive advantage.
- dang 4y ago
  I've emailed them. I'm sure it's unintentional but yeah it's bad and should be fixed pronto.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    I hope your faith in them will turn out to be justified, but there is clearly a pattern to their behaviour. In a previous takedown reported here just five months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594), the takedown was not reversed either; for some projects the takedown was likely legitimate, but for others this was obvious abuse. The founder states in a comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091354) that "[their] intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments", practically admitting that they are knowingly abusing DMCA systems to execute takedowns of other people's code. They can definitely take down plagiarized code snippets under the DMCA, but they have no right to take down "solutions to company assessments".
  - 0des 4y ago
    Thanks for getting in touch, hope it works out. I'm chalking it up to heat of the moment, mistake, poor judgement in a time of strife.
exabrial 4y ago
If you work for a company that tries to push me into their tests, consider my job application withdrawn.
- alephnan 4y ago
  Is there a spreadsheet of such companies?
jzer0cool 4y ago
What was the exact part DMCA'ed? Was it documentation? I am curious also here about opensource. What was the license if any? Also, which license allows you to copy (and modify) for your own use, whether personal or not to reproduce?
- gurjeet 4y ago
  This is the archived copy of the URL in the takedown notice. https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.sympy.org/latest/modules/solvers/solvers.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...
  - not2b 4y ago
    If this was the page that triggered the takedown, any copying was probably in the reverse direction (that is, the HackerRank material copied something from the documentation, which is legal, and their idiot copyright enforcer doesn't understand that).
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      It says a lot about the quality of Hackerrank as a company if they admit that the readme for an open source project contains the coveted solutions to their problems.
binarymax 4y ago
GitHub is partially responsible here too. It seems the action is remove first ask questions later. Why can’t there be more protection? Innocent until proven guilty, anyone?
- elefantastisch 4y ago
  That's not GitHub's decision. It's the way the law works. They have a thorough explanation with links to viewpoints challenging DMCA on the submitted page.
  - djrogers 4y ago
    They can legally reinstate the pages with a simple counter-claim / attestation though, but they don’t seem to have implemented that feature of the DMCA yet.
    - not2b 4y ago
      They have to wait 10 days if the people who filed the notice don't respond.
      - GordonS 4y ago
        Which is hardly fair if the takedown notice doesn't even have information you'd need to respond - like what exactly is meant to be the infringing content. Also, the claimant allowing one business day (whatever that even means, given the scummy company is in Pakistan and the scummy hiring company is in the US, and the alleged infringees are all over the place!) is quite obviously ridiculous.
daemonhunter 4y ago
Insane. Common person has to own the burden.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jerry1979 4y ago
What does HackerRank gain from DMCAing this and allegedly some PHP docs?
- nightfly 4y ago
  Nothing, but the company they contracted with that's screwing up is probably getting a good paycheck
Fordec 4y ago
What are decent HackerRank alternatives out on the market at the moment?
- fabianhjr 4y ago
  I like open kattis and spoj. There are many open source judges that can be used for example in a course with course specific problems and templates. (a workplace could also create their own problems / challenges to test on)
- __app_dev__ 4y ago
  Find a different job in a better industry. No other profession tolerates this horrible style of interview.
- fadifrancis 4y ago
  interviewing.io
  - __app_dev__ 4y ago
    I used that one once. It was great! Pricy but if you have an actual interview with a big tech company it's worth it if you can afford it.
blurbleblurble 4y ago
I wonder how many other repos they've wrongfully DMCA'd that we'll never hear about.
- xucheng 4y ago
  List of takedown notices from HackerRank to GitHub: https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank&type= https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank&type=
  - raymondh 4y ago
    Thank you, this gives a lot of insight into what is going on. This one tells the whole story: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/ea3736a0c4c9574e0c8cea06db41cc4ee01c7e83/2021/11/2021-11-30-hackerrank-counternotice.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/ea3736a0c4c9574e0c8cea06...
    - danamit 4y ago
      Won't type the HR word, this page might get DMCA'd.
    - Liquid_Fire 4y ago
      And yet the "repo" (seems to be a Gist) referred to in this couternotice is still down.
      - perihelions 4y ago
        I think it did come back up, and then went down again: https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=TheRayTracer https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=TheRayTracer HackerRank/WorthIT didn't dispute the counternotice (AFAICT), but instead they re-filed the same DMCA notice again, four months later. I think the repo owner gave up at that point.
        hef19898 4y ago
rvivek 4y ago
Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085
- anotherhue 4y ago
  RECOMPENSE
- endisneigh 4y ago
  I’m curious - why even bother? What will you do if someone torrents the solutions? Focus on figuring out another solution. Leetcode for instance puts the solutions out there.
  - rvivek 4y ago
    It's not an either or. We need to do the takedown AND figure out a way where we can do things like randomizing questions but preserving the integrity of it to ensure a fair evaluation, etc.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Why do the takedown though? You’ll never get rid of solutions being online. There are solutions to most questions on leetcode on GitHub as we speak. I don’t get it. If your assessment is designed that knowing the solution ruins it then your assessing process is broken. I’ve literally showed candidates the solution to leetcode questions and they still don’t get it. Trying to remove solutions seems like a poor use of effort imho.
    - xucheng 4y ago
      > figure out a way where we can do things like randomizing questions but preserving the integrity of it to ensure a fair evaluation, etc How does any of these have anything to do with copyright infringement in the context of DMCA takedown? Do you even own the copyright to the alleged leaked solution?
zomglings 4y ago
I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also an honorable FUCK you to GitHub for your DMCA policy to take down the repository without even a standby period (perhaps with a warning?). And FUCK the internet in 2022 for its bureaucratic and corporate spirit. And FUCK me for not having the steel to just take my code off of GitHub. I am part of the problem.
- jfarmer 4y ago
  Fuck the DMCA, not GitHub! AFAIK, they're legally required to take down material as soon as they receive a DMCA notice or else lose their safe harbor status. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    If you don't take down something you get a DMCA notice for, do you lose safe harbor status for everything, or just for that one thing? If the latter, then wouldn't it be a good move for GitHub to ignore DMCA requests that their lawyers are sure wouldn't hold water?
    - jfarmer 4y ago
      As I understand, there are different safe harbors and each applies at the "service" level. It's "online service providers" that have safe harbor status. If you lose safe harbor status you become liable for infringing content on that service. Infringement still has to happen and you'd still have to be taken to court and lose, but it's now "as if" you yourself uploaded everything. So in this instance GitHub would be fine, but if they didn't take down the content then they themselves would become liable for any fringing content on their platform. Or rather Microsoft would become liable, I suppose. IANAL. That's just my rough understanding. Fenwick and West has a lovely 36-page FAQ: https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.pdf https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.p...
chajath 4y ago
I hope there's some real consequence of DMCA abuse like this. I hope companies would announce HackerRank boycott in hiring process. There are better alternatives tbh
perihelions 4y ago
Unpopular opinion: FOSS projects shouldn't bother hosting under US jurisdiction. There's absolutely no upside for a nonprofit, and our supercharged lawfare culture causes endless headaches for everyone -- even the most innocent software in the whole world, like a symbolic algebra library. It's so depressing to see well-meaning philanthropy apathetically trampled by thugs in suits.
- remram 4y ago
  My OVH server in France got disconnected a few years back because one site had a link to some malicious material. Had to reply via email to get them to reconnect it. That was back in March 2017.
- not2b 4y ago
  Unfortunately there have been similar problems in other jurisdictions. It's far from clear who is "safe". For example, the EU now has a DMCA-like copyright takedown process.
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    The DMCA is very very tame compared to the new EU copyright rules though. By an order of magnitude imo.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  The terms of DMCA are not much different from those in other countries. The WIPO copyright treaty caused many of its signees to practically copy the text from the DMCA into their own legal system. Perhaps you can host this stuff in countries that do not care much about copyright (China, Russia, etc.) but those usually come with their own problems. Instead of avoiding countries, you should avoid hosters that will take such extreme measures following DMCA takedown requests. There are companies out there that will have a human read your counter notice and care about the legality of this whole situation, you just have to find them. That means avoiding big players like Github and building your own bespoke host, probably behind a Cloudflare or similar tunnel to prevent your website from going down because of DDoS attacks and traffic spikes, which will add significantly to hosting costs, especially if the library becomes successful. To be honest, this sounds like solving the wrong problem. Hackerrank and their friends are the problem, not the people using Github's free service to host their documentation.
jeroenhd 4y ago
Not the first time they've taken down Github repos, some with a legal basis (partial problem text, though Fair Use might overrule that if the cases ever made it to court), others with no involvement at all (https://github.com/egfx/React-Leaderboard https://github.com/egfx/React-Leaderboard still hasn't been restored, for example) More information about previous DMCA abuse here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594 Personally, I would not trust a company this unethical to certify anything. Their excuse seems to be "we're using an external service" but they chose that external service and are fully responsible for these takedowns in their name.
- brasic 4y ago
  Part of the DMCA takedown process is: > A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. Has this penalty ever been enforced?
  - bawolff 4y ago
    Not exactly that, as it was settled out of court, but https://torrentfreak.com/youtube-settles-lawsuit-with-alleged-dmca-extortion-scammer-for-25000-191016/ https://torrentfreak.com/youtube-settles-lawsuit-with-allege... comes to mind. However that person did things that are quite a bit worse than what hackerrank did.
  - kmeisthax 4y ago
    DMCA 512(f) provides a penalty for misrepresentation; however, it is quite difficult to actually prove such things unless the plaintiff is very, very stupid (in Latin: pro se) or obviously acting with malice. For example, if the thing you're taking down does use your content, but it falls under fair use, you can still get away with taking it down. There is no objective test for fair use and 512(f) does not mandate one; the criteria is just that you merely considered fair use. And since fair use is a bottomless pit of grey areas, you basically can't get a 512(f) ruling out of a legitimate copyright owner. It only catches the kinds of people who, say, pretend they're Bungie so they can file DMCA takedowns Bungie can't retract in Bungie's name.
crossroadsguy 4y ago
From the posted DMCA notice: > Allegedly Infringing Material Location Links: “Allegedly”? Does this mean even the lawyers are not sure whether the material is infringing upon their client’s content or not?
remram 4y ago
After the youtube-dl incident, Nat Friedman (then-CEO) tweeted: https://mobile.twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1328365679473426432 https://mobile.twitter.com/natfriedman/status/13283656794734... > We are taking a stand for developers and have reinstated the youtube-dl repo. Section 1201 of the DMCA is broken and needs to be fixed. Developers should have the freedom to tinker. That's how you get great tools like youtube-dl. Now they are deleting obviously-compliant docs from nonsensical requests. I guess the "stand" went away with Friedman...
- captn3m0 4y ago
  > To help them, GitHub will establish and donate $1M to a developer defense fund to help protect open source developers on GitHub from unwarranted DMCA Section 1201 takedown claims. We will immediately begin working with other members of the community to set up this fund and take other measures to collectively protect developers and safeguard developer collaboration. There was also the promise a $1m developer defense fund. I wonder what happened to that.
  - remram 4y ago
    Apparently instead GitHub got us a one-day response window even on local holidays.
thisistheend123 4y ago
Hacker Rank is a pretty shitty company. The platform is full of bad UX/UI. The questions are pointless exercise in wasting time and energy.
paxys 4y ago
What is the penalty for a clearly wrong DMCA request? Does the company have any responsibility to correct their mistake? Or can I just go spamming requests to take down content all over the internet that I don't like?
rvivek 4y ago
Hello again, Vivek, founder/CEO here. In the interest of moving swiftly, here are the actions we are going to take: (1) We have withdrawn the DMCA notice for sympy; Sent a note to senior leadership in Github to act on this quickly. (2) We have stopped the whole DMCA process for now and working on internal guidelines of what constitutes a real violation so that these kind of incidents don't happen. We are going to do this in-house (3) We are going to donate $25k to the sympy project. As a company we take a lot of pride in helping developers and it sucks to see this. I'm extremely sorry for what happened here.
- jaysonqpt 4y ago
  Hey Vivek, I have received fake DMCA requests from WorthIT Solutions, Pakistan that you guys seems to have hired. It is sent for a simple blog entry discussing about programming algorithm! I recommend training them or replacing them.
  - trhway 4y ago
    I guess it is pretty much perjury penalty risk free to make such DMCA declaration from outside of US: >Declaration: I have taken fair use into consideration. I have a good faith belief that the use of the copyrighted materials as described above is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law. I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
    - paulgb 4y ago
      Unfortunately, that penalty has no teeth, regardless of where the filer is.
- arcen 4y ago
  Nice I suppose these were the pointers given to you by your PR team? What prompted (2) after all this time, considering there are previous instances of HackerRank acting hostile?
HNHatesUsers 4y ago
yoru-sulfur 4y ago
Deleted my account. The irresponsibility displayed by contracting out DMCA takedown like this is disgusting.
thrownaway41922 4y ago
jaysonqpt 4y ago
HackeRank sends pretty nasty DMCA requests. I recently received one from a Pakistani company hired by HackerRank. The material in question was a simple blog entry on a well known programming problem and its solution. The problem is DMCA doesn't provide any way to fight these fake requests and Google simply removes the content until you send a counter notification and wait for over 2 weeks. DMCA should have a provision that if a company is misusing DMCA at large-scale, their requests should go through additional validation.
savant_penguin 4y ago
"This repository is currently disabled due to a DMCA takedown _notice_." This is a disgrace How can something be taken down by nothing more than a notice? What if the next one isn't as big as a project as sympy? DMCA requests are absolutely broken
timkpaine 4y ago
I don't remember all the details, but one time at "a very large US Bank", a surveillance contractor saw "@largebank.com" email addresses in the public archives of an apache listserv and issued some type of takedown. Apache responded by blocking all access from the bank's IPs including mirrors/other critical stuff...oops!
TheRealNGenius 4y ago
It is clear, do not store any critical code on Github, Backups need to be made elsewhere.
pm90 4y ago
As soon as the online coding challenge sites started being used for tech interviews, they got into the business of trying to prevent algo solutions from being shared. The real answer: don't do it, its not possible. You may have made some kind of contractual guarantee that you would prevent sharing of solutions, but that is your problem. This is stupid and silly and I will not be using hackerrank anymore.
jaysonqpt 4y ago
Many people doesn't seem to understand what pain individuals undergo when their content is taken offline by Google or Github due to a fake DMCA notice. They would have built something over years and one morning entire thing is taken offline due to a fake DMCA notice. Then they have to issue a counter notice with all its legal implications and it also exposes all your private information including full address, name and phone number(in a wrong country, you become target of thieves as well). Then it takes almost a month before content is restored. How can an individual fight this? How can you make companies misusing DMCA pay for it?
- manquer 4y ago
  You could fight them by counter claims and following the DMCA processes which on paper have stiff penalties for abuse. Practically I have never heard of major abuses being punished, so wouldn’t count on it. As a technologist perhaps solve it with tech, the first step would be to host your own content instead of using a third party app based in U.S. There is not a lot of deep tech to what GitHub gives as a githost, a self hosted gitlab serves just as well . Similarly for video photos etc, it is very hard and expensive to deliver video for millions/billions delivering video to few thousands is trivial. same thing for sub stack, medium etc Generally these take down notices don’t go after your DC/ISP domain host provider that easily unless you are in the cross hairs of powerful lobbies like how Libgen or PirateBay are , so self hosting helps a lot. If they do then there is distributed systems like IPFS etc can be resilient to notices.
  - jaysonqpt 4y ago
    In theory, self hosting works. I have my content self hosted. In this case, they sent a DMCA request to Google and they delisted my webpage from Google. 99% of my traffic simply dropped. In addition, all Google properties picked up the DMCA action on Google index and started sending me warning and suspension of ads etc. I have sent a detailed counter notice. But even after 12 days, I am yet to hear back from Google. So self-hosting may work for Github, but not if you want presence in Google index.
    - 4y ago
andrew_ 4y ago
Ah, HackerRank. A major contributor to the shitshow that is present day software engineering interview processes.
- gautamdivgi 4y ago
  Is it really though? I thought the algorithms hiring process was popularized by google way before hacker rank was a company. As mentioned in a thread above, hacker rank and leetcode have made a major question bank available, but I don't think they started it. For that the blame lies elsewhere :)
Qem 4y ago
Stephen Wolfram is probably happy today. It's a shame an awesome project like SymPy can be nuked by some bogus perjury-riddled spam notice just like this.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
senden9 4y ago
It seams that HackerRank has about 27 DMCA take-downs on GitHub. See https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank
alephnan 4y ago
Is there a list of companies that uses HackerRank for interviews?
epolanski 4y ago
One worrying thing: it's very cheap to send a DMCA, it's very expensive to defend from it.
- vjerancrnjak 4y ago
  When stuff has that much asymmetry, it is seriously broken.
allisdust 4y ago
I wish I have enough time to host a dedicated hackerrank (among other such business model companies) solutions website in a jurisdiction that doesn't care for dmca at all. This entire business model is shitty if it involves taking down the solutions for problems. None of this is novel and shouldn't be protected by anything (copyright or patents).
Karupan 4y ago
What scares me the most about this story is how easily it could've been a small software shop running their entire operations on GitHub getting DCMA'd without any merit, and just losing access to an important repo within 24 hours. And imagine they don't know about Hacker News. Or they posted something which didn't get enough upvotes for the offending company to respond and resolve it quickly. As a software developer, I've surrendered so much autonomy for the sake of convenience. When it works 99% of the time, things are awesome. But god forbid you are the 1%, cause there is usually no talking to real people to get support. The only recourse is shouting about it on Twitter/HN and hope someone notices, thereby leaving everything to chance - that just makes me sad to my core.
- rootlocus 4y ago
  Git is a distributed VCS, everyone has a clone of the repo, and at least one person has the latest main branch.
  - meibo 4y ago
    A lot of open source projects rely on GitHub for their community, funding and discoverability. Dismissing that would be dishonest.
  - tristan957 4y ago
    With GitHub allowing editing on the web using devcontainers and VSCode, someone might not have a copy of the repo locally. You could definitely still blame the company at hand for not having redundancy and having a single point of failure, but the point still stands.
- tolapatola 4y ago
  Why did github disable the whole website when a single page was reported? From the other notices I see that there are specific files which get removed. Doesn't even make sense
HeavyStorm 4y ago
It seems that this needs more attention. I'm considering removing my hr account in protest.
philderbeast 4y ago
https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-19-hackerrank.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-1... and still more DMCA notices going in since this post has been up, Looks like they still haven't learnt there lesson despite what they have said in this thread
eyear 4y ago
why HankerRank? Just use LeetCode!
carlgreene 4y ago
Lol 840 upvotes, 305 comments, not even a day old and it’s not on the front page. What a racket this place can be
Brian_K_White 4y ago
They are happy to accept any benefits that come from the "external service" operating on their behalf. If the "external service" wins some money or closes down some competition, do they give it back and say "look that was an external service, nothing to do with us"?
737min 4y ago
The bigger lesson could be that engineering recruiting via automated standardized quiz doesn’t have much of a future?
marksimi 4y ago
If you happened to create an account for these shitbirds, here's a handy link to delete it: https://www.hackerrank.com/settings/account https://www.hackerrank.com/settings/account
canyon289 4y ago
Hackerrank filed a DMCA notice against my blog because of a graph search example I had a written and I had 24 hours to full delete it or my blog would be deleted. As an individual this is so frustrating and if you mission is to support developers Vivek, I'm one developer that had quite the opposite experience. I frankly am very frustrated by your company and you hiring folks to shakedown developers writing poen blogs or docs. If any company tries to get me to do a hackerrank interview to join I'm going to decline. https://ravinkumar.com/ https://ravinkumar.com/

921 points by hrldcpr 4y ago

rdl 4y ago

Wow. I'm actively in the market for this service for something but will never do business with HackerRank, as they continued to use the same horrible abusive DMCA agent after they did this back in January. Once is "we made a bad choice in vendor", twice is we are horrible people ourselves.

Mohammatnur 4y ago

hrldcpr 4y ago

https://docs.sympy.org/ https://docs.sympy.org/ is down …seems like a lame move for a programming-oriented company. The takedown message is here – https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-15-hackerrank.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-1... And the offending page is archived here, I wonder what part they wanted removed – https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.sympy.org/latest/modules/solvers/solvers.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...

Nextgrid 4y ago
What I suspect happened is that the HackerRank test legitimately (fair use) included parts of the docs (the exercise could’ve been about the library those docs are for), DMCA enforcement has been outsourced to the lowest bidder and these idiots just did a blanket search for some phrases from the test, found the official docs and DMCA’d it.
- smorgusofborg 4y ago
  The CC licenses should probably be adjusted to make a DMCA attempt a permanent revocation of license. That way DMCAs can flow in the opposite direction and people can learn things.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    Realistically speaking, you’d still need to enforce breaches of whatever license you choose but most open-source projects don’t have the resources to pursue those cases. Maybe there’s a case for a consortium of open-source projects that can pool its resources and serve as an insurance policy to fight back against license violations or malicious/stupid DMCA takedowns.
    - smorgusofborg 4y ago
      Whenever you file a DMCA appeal with GitHub/etc you would have the option to file a takedown on the jack ass. Some projects doing it occasionally would trigger the right conservative fears at corporations to reduce the market.
    - anyfactor 4y ago
      We have so many organizations but in the last 2 decades nobody has thought of creating colloborative legal fund and insurance system to combat and in many cases enforce licensing violation. Open source projects should have a kind of union of their own. Then again I wonder if it would ever be possible because corporate money has became a key donation source and in many cases many OS projects themselves have become corporatized.
      - sciurus 4y ago
        There are organizations that help with license enforcement, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy
        Nicksil 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Conservancy
- g_p 4y ago
  This seems plausible. The only real solution here seems to be to find a way to hold HackerRank to account for this (in the most costly way possible), so they face an incentive to do meaningful due diligence and evaluate before partnering with someone that acts as their agent. Ultimately it wasn't them that did this, but unless they bear a significant cost from doing so, which causes them to pursue their DMCA agent for negligence or breach of contract (or whatever other remedy is available to them), I don't see this type of thing changing. Once a DMCA agent becomes a liability, the market will be forced to mature, and buyers will need to do due diligence to minimise their likelihood of being opened up to a large and costly battle as a result of the negligence of their agent.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
musicale 4y ago
> I have taken fair use into consideration. Not really. Nor have you considered who the actual author and copyright holder is.

T3RMINATED 4y ago

"Someone has illegally copied our client's technical exams questions and answers from their official website https://www.hackerrank.com/ https://www.hackerrank.com/ and uploaded them on their platform without permission." WorthIT is worthless.

Andoryuuta 4y ago

This same DMCA company (WorthIT Solutions) previously tried to DMCA the php docs range function page on behalf of HackerRank [0]. Pretty crazy. [0]: https://www.mail-archive.com/php-webmaster@lists.php.net/msg14947.html https://www.mail-archive.com/php-webmaster@lists.php.net/msg...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
One way for HackerRank to do the right thing would be to sue WorthIT for breach of contract and loss of reputation. Their contract must have included some requirements for due diligence on filing those notices, and having these bogus DMCA notices does hurt HackerRank’s reputation, especially with its target audience. Only way to make this stop is make companies like WorthIT feel financial pain from their actions.
- blurbleblurble 4y ago
  There's also an argument to be made that this is on HackerRank. Just because they're using a contractor to do the dirty work doesn't excuse them from responsibility for this sloppiness.
  - paulgb 4y ago
    Especially given that the false takedown of the PHP docs dates back to January. Issuing false takedowns against organizations whose code you use for free is a pretty bad look. (It's also a pretty crummy product, I used to use it as an interviewer and am glad I no longer have to.)
    - rvivek 4y ago
      Sorry to hear. I just sent you a note. Appreciate your response.
    - threatofrain 4y ago
      May we hear more about why it’s a poor product?

fxtentacle 4y ago

I'm happy that this is now on the front page because that's how fraudulent DMCA requests get fixed :) The goodwill lost will now surely exceed the money they saved by not doing proper due diligence. I'm optimistic that HackerRank won't make the same mistake again and other companies might take notice, too.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
It would be nice if a lawyer got censured for this. That's how fraudulent DMCA takedowns should get fixed. It would also be nice if Github would implement instant restoration via counternotice as allowed by the DMCA. Implementing only half of the law enables this sort of abuse.
- gurjeet 4y ago
  Github does provide pretty descriptive method of submitting in their dmca repository readme [1], and in every takedown notice, as well. [1]: github.com/github/dmca/ > Our help articles provide more details on our DMCA takedown policy and [how to file a counter notice][2]. [2]: https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-policies/guide-to-submitting-a-dmca-counter-notice https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-polic...
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    This is still an asymmetric, unfair process. Automatic takedowns from bad faith actors are catered to left and right but you have to negotiate a bureaucracy with manual review to get restoration. The DMCA doesn't require this to receive safe harbor protection. Provide a form where an up to date contact point can be submitted that you can forward to the plaintiff and then restore the content. It's that simple. They can deal with litigating the dispute from that point on and Github is not responsible.
- runlevel1 4y ago
  You don't have to be a lawyer to send a DMCA takedown. Companies have historically gotten away with these reckless takedowns because the law just requires that "the complaining party has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law." (17 U.S.C. § 512(c)(3)(A)(v))[^1] In a recent 9th Circuit case, Lenz v. Universal Music Corp[^2], the court held that Lenz could sue Universal Music for a bad faith takedown. Specifically, "failure to [consider fair use] raises a triable issue as to whether the copyright holder formed a subjective good faith belief that the use was not authorized by law." However, proving that it was in bad faith could be tricky. Caveat: IANAL [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512#c_3_A_iv https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512#c_3_A_iv [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp.

paulgb 4y ago

> I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. Too bad these perjery-as-a-service companies never get held to account.

unixfg 4y ago
The notice I've seen from them lists their address as being in New Garden Town, Lahore, Pakistan. I don't expect they're worried about the repercussions.
- eftychis 4y ago
  Perhaps, there should be a bond of some value necessary to be posted in such cases. If there is the appropriate money on the line, people suddenly think twice.

0des 4y ago

Why is a YC company not held to a better standard? This is poor form.

jplasmeier 4y ago
What makes you think YC companies have any different standards than the rest of the corporate world? If anything startups are deliberately held to a lower standard on the justification of “disruption”. YC is a way to make people money first and foremost. Don’t be shocked.
- tedunangst 4y ago
  YC considers "no assholes" to be a competitive advantage.
dang 4y ago
I've emailed them. I'm sure it's unintentional but yeah it's bad and should be fixed pronto.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  I hope your faith in them will turn out to be justified, but there is clearly a pattern to their behaviour. In a previous takedown reported here just five months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594), the takedown was not reversed either; for some projects the takedown was likely legitimate, but for others this was obvious abuse. The founder states in a comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091354) that "[their] intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments", practically admitting that they are knowingly abusing DMCA systems to execute takedowns of other people's code. They can definitely take down plagiarized code snippets under the DMCA, but they have no right to take down "solutions to company assessments".
- 0des 4y ago
  Thanks for getting in touch, hope it works out. I'm chalking it up to heat of the moment, mistake, poor judgement in a time of strife.

exabrial 4y ago

If you work for a company that tries to push me into their tests, consider my job application withdrawn.

alephnan 4y ago
Is there a spreadsheet of such companies?

jzer0cool 4y ago

What was the exact part DMCA'ed? Was it documentation? I am curious also here about opensource. What was the license if any? Also, which license allows you to copy (and modify) for your own use, whether personal or not to reproduce?

gurjeet 4y ago
This is the archived copy of the URL in the takedown notice. https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.sympy.org/latest/modules/solvers/solvers.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...
- not2b 4y ago
  If this was the page that triggered the takedown, any copying was probably in the reverse direction (that is, the HackerRank material copied something from the documentation, which is legal, and their idiot copyright enforcer doesn't understand that).
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    It says a lot about the quality of Hackerrank as a company if they admit that the readme for an open source project contains the coveted solutions to their problems.

binarymax 4y ago

GitHub is partially responsible here too. It seems the action is remove first ask questions later. Why can’t there be more protection? Innocent until proven guilty, anyone?

elefantastisch 4y ago
That's not GitHub's decision. It's the way the law works. They have a thorough explanation with links to viewpoints challenging DMCA on the submitted page.
- djrogers 4y ago
  They can legally reinstate the pages with a simple counter-claim / attestation though, but they don’t seem to have implemented that feature of the DMCA yet.
  - not2b 4y ago
    They have to wait 10 days if the people who filed the notice don't respond.
    - GordonS 4y ago
      Which is hardly fair if the takedown notice doesn't even have information you'd need to respond - like what exactly is meant to be the infringing content. Also, the claimant allowing one business day (whatever that even means, given the scummy company is in Pakistan and the scummy hiring company is in the US, and the alleged infringees are all over the place!) is quite obviously ridiculous.

daemonhunter 4y ago

Insane. Common person has to own the burden.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jerry1979 4y ago

What does HackerRank gain from DMCAing this and allegedly some PHP docs?

nightfly 4y ago
Nothing, but the company they contracted with that's screwing up is probably getting a good paycheck

Fordec 4y ago

What are decent HackerRank alternatives out on the market at the moment?

fabianhjr 4y ago
I like open kattis and spoj. There are many open source judges that can be used for example in a course with course specific problems and templates. (a workplace could also create their own problems / challenges to test on)
__app_dev__ 4y ago
Find a different job in a better industry. No other profession tolerates this horrible style of interview.
fadifrancis 4y ago
interviewing.io
- __app_dev__ 4y ago
  I used that one once. It was great! Pricy but if you have an actual interview with a big tech company it's worth it if you can afford it.

blurbleblurble 4y ago

I wonder how many other repos they've wrongfully DMCA'd that we'll never hear about.

xucheng 4y ago
List of takedown notices from HackerRank to GitHub: https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank&type= https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank&type=
- raymondh 4y ago
  Thank you, this gives a lot of insight into what is going on. This one tells the whole story: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/ea3736a0c4c9574e0c8cea06db41cc4ee01c7e83/2021/11/2021-11-30-hackerrank-counternotice.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/ea3736a0c4c9574e0c8cea06...
  - danamit 4y ago
    Won't type the HR word, this page might get DMCA'd.
  - Liquid_Fire 4y ago
    And yet the "repo" (seems to be a Gist) referred to in this couternotice is still down.
    - perihelions 4y ago
      I think it did come back up, and then went down again: https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=TheRayTracer https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=TheRayTracer HackerRank/WorthIT didn't dispute the counternotice (AFAICT), but instead they re-filed the same DMCA notice again, four months later. I think the repo owner gave up at that point.
      - hef19898 4y ago

rvivek 4y ago

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

anotherhue 4y ago
RECOMPENSE
endisneigh 4y ago
I’m curious - why even bother? What will you do if someone torrents the solutions? Focus on figuring out another solution. Leetcode for instance puts the solutions out there.
- rvivek 4y ago
  It's not an either or. We need to do the takedown AND figure out a way where we can do things like randomizing questions but preserving the integrity of it to ensure a fair evaluation, etc.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    Why do the takedown though? You’ll never get rid of solutions being online. There are solutions to most questions on leetcode on GitHub as we speak. I don’t get it. If your assessment is designed that knowing the solution ruins it then your assessing process is broken. I’ve literally showed candidates the solution to leetcode questions and they still don’t get it. Trying to remove solutions seems like a poor use of effort imho.
  - xucheng 4y ago
    > figure out a way where we can do things like randomizing questions but preserving the integrity of it to ensure a fair evaluation, etc How does any of these have anything to do with copyright infringement in the context of DMCA takedown? Do you even own the copyright to the alleged leaked solution?

zomglings 4y ago

I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also an honorable FUCK you to GitHub for your DMCA policy to take down the repository without even a standby period (perhaps with a warning?). And FUCK the internet in 2022 for its bureaucratic and corporate spirit. And FUCK me for not having the steel to just take my code off of GitHub. I am part of the problem.

jfarmer 4y ago
Fuck the DMCA, not GitHub! AFAIK, they're legally required to take down material as soon as they receive a DMCA notice or else lose their safe harbor status. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down
- josephcsible 4y ago
  If you don't take down something you get a DMCA notice for, do you lose safe harbor status for everything, or just for that one thing? If the latter, then wouldn't it be a good move for GitHub to ignore DMCA requests that their lawyers are sure wouldn't hold water?
  - jfarmer 4y ago
    As I understand, there are different safe harbors and each applies at the "service" level. It's "online service providers" that have safe harbor status. If you lose safe harbor status you become liable for infringing content on that service. Infringement still has to happen and you'd still have to be taken to court and lose, but it's now "as if" you yourself uploaded everything. So in this instance GitHub would be fine, but if they didn't take down the content then they themselves would become liable for any fringing content on their platform. Or rather Microsoft would become liable, I suppose. IANAL. That's just my rough understanding. Fenwick and West has a lovely 36-page FAQ: https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.pdf https://assets.fenwick.com/legacy/FenwickDocuments/DMCA-QA.p...

chajath 4y ago

I hope there's some real consequence of DMCA abuse like this. I hope companies would announce HackerRank boycott in hiring process. There are better alternatives tbh

perihelions 4y ago

Unpopular opinion: FOSS projects shouldn't bother hosting under US jurisdiction. There's absolutely no upside for a nonprofit, and our supercharged lawfare culture causes endless headaches for everyone -- even the most innocent software in the whole world, like a symbolic algebra library. It's so depressing to see well-meaning philanthropy apathetically trampled by thugs in suits.

remram 4y ago
My OVH server in France got disconnected a few years back because one site had a link to some malicious material. Had to reply via email to get them to reconnect it. That was back in March 2017.
not2b 4y ago
Unfortunately there have been similar problems in other jurisdictions. It's far from clear who is "safe". For example, the EU now has a DMCA-like copyright takedown process.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  The DMCA is very very tame compared to the new EU copyright rules though. By an order of magnitude imo.
jeroenhd 4y ago
The terms of DMCA are not much different from those in other countries. The WIPO copyright treaty caused many of its signees to practically copy the text from the DMCA into their own legal system. Perhaps you can host this stuff in countries that do not care much about copyright (China, Russia, etc.) but those usually come with their own problems. Instead of avoiding countries, you should avoid hosters that will take such extreme measures following DMCA takedown requests. There are companies out there that will have a human read your counter notice and care about the legality of this whole situation, you just have to find them. That means avoiding big players like Github and building your own bespoke host, probably behind a Cloudflare or similar tunnel to prevent your website from going down because of DDoS attacks and traffic spikes, which will add significantly to hosting costs, especially if the library becomes successful. To be honest, this sounds like solving the wrong problem. Hackerrank and their friends are the problem, not the people using Github's free service to host their documentation.

jeroenhd 4y ago

Not the first time they've taken down Github repos, some with a legal basis (partial problem text, though Fair Use might overrule that if the cases ever made it to court), others with no involvement at all (https://github.com/egfx/React-Leaderboard https://github.com/egfx/React-Leaderboard still hasn't been restored, for example) More information about previous DMCA abuse here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29239594 Personally, I would not trust a company this unethical to certify anything. Their excuse seems to be "we're using an external service" but they chose that external service and are fully responsible for these takedowns in their name.

brasic 4y ago
Part of the DMCA takedown process is: > A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. Has this penalty ever been enforced?
- bawolff 4y ago
  Not exactly that, as it was settled out of court, but https://torrentfreak.com/youtube-settles-lawsuit-with-alleged-dmca-extortion-scammer-for-25000-191016/ https://torrentfreak.com/youtube-settles-lawsuit-with-allege... comes to mind. However that person did things that are quite a bit worse than what hackerrank did.
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  DMCA 512(f) provides a penalty for misrepresentation; however, it is quite difficult to actually prove such things unless the plaintiff is very, very stupid (in Latin: pro se) or obviously acting with malice. For example, if the thing you're taking down does use your content, but it falls under fair use, you can still get away with taking it down. There is no objective test for fair use and 512(f) does not mandate one; the criteria is just that you merely considered fair use. And since fair use is a bottomless pit of grey areas, you basically can't get a 512(f) ruling out of a legitimate copyright owner. It only catches the kinds of people who, say, pretend they're Bungie so they can file DMCA takedowns Bungie can't retract in Bungie's name.

crossroadsguy 4y ago

From the posted DMCA notice: > Allegedly Infringing Material Location Links: “Allegedly”? Does this mean even the lawyers are not sure whether the material is infringing upon their client’s content or not?

remram 4y ago

After the youtube-dl incident, Nat Friedman (then-CEO) tweeted: https://mobile.twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1328365679473426432 https://mobile.twitter.com/natfriedman/status/13283656794734... > We are taking a stand for developers and have reinstated the youtube-dl repo. Section 1201 of the DMCA is broken and needs to be fixed. Developers should have the freedom to tinker. That's how you get great tools like youtube-dl. Now they are deleting obviously-compliant docs from nonsensical requests. I guess the "stand" went away with Friedman...

captn3m0 4y ago
> To help them, GitHub will establish and donate $1M to a developer defense fund to help protect open source developers on GitHub from unwarranted DMCA Section 1201 takedown claims. We will immediately begin working with other members of the community to set up this fund and take other measures to collectively protect developers and safeguard developer collaboration. There was also the promise a $1m developer defense fund. I wonder what happened to that.
- remram 4y ago
  Apparently instead GitHub got us a one-day response window even on local holidays.

thisistheend123 4y ago

Hacker Rank is a pretty shitty company. The platform is full of bad UX/UI. The questions are pointless exercise in wasting time and energy.

paxys 4y ago

What is the penalty for a clearly wrong DMCA request? Does the company have any responsibility to correct their mistake? Or can I just go spamming requests to take down content all over the internet that I don't like?

rvivek 4y ago

Hello again, Vivek, founder/CEO here. In the interest of moving swiftly, here are the actions we are going to take: (1) We have withdrawn the DMCA notice for sympy; Sent a note to senior leadership in Github to act on this quickly. (2) We have stopped the whole DMCA process for now and working on internal guidelines of what constitutes a real violation so that these kind of incidents don't happen. We are going to do this in-house (3) We are going to donate $25k to the sympy project. As a company we take a lot of pride in helping developers and it sucks to see this. I'm extremely sorry for what happened here.

jaysonqpt 4y ago
Hey Vivek, I have received fake DMCA requests from WorthIT Solutions, Pakistan that you guys seems to have hired. It is sent for a simple blog entry discussing about programming algorithm! I recommend training them or replacing them.
- trhway 4y ago
  I guess it is pretty much perjury penalty risk free to make such DMCA declaration from outside of US: >Declaration: I have taken fair use into consideration. I have a good faith belief that the use of the copyrighted materials as described above is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law. I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
  - paulgb 4y ago
    Unfortunately, that penalty has no teeth, regardless of where the filer is.
arcen 4y ago
Nice I suppose these were the pointers given to you by your PR team? What prompted (2) after all this time, considering there are previous instances of HackerRank acting hostile?

HNHatesUsers 4y ago

yoru-sulfur 4y ago

Deleted my account. The irresponsibility displayed by contracting out DMCA takedown like this is disgusting.

thrownaway41922 4y ago

jaysonqpt 4y ago

HackeRank sends pretty nasty DMCA requests. I recently received one from a Pakistani company hired by HackerRank. The material in question was a simple blog entry on a well known programming problem and its solution. The problem is DMCA doesn't provide any way to fight these fake requests and Google simply removes the content until you send a counter notification and wait for over 2 weeks. DMCA should have a provision that if a company is misusing DMCA at large-scale, their requests should go through additional validation.

savant_penguin 4y ago

"This repository is currently disabled due to a DMCA takedown _notice_." This is a disgrace How can something be taken down by nothing more than a notice? What if the next one isn't as big as a project as sympy? DMCA requests are absolutely broken

timkpaine 4y ago

I don't remember all the details, but one time at "a very large US Bank", a surveillance contractor saw "@largebank.com" email addresses in the public archives of an apache listserv and issued some type of takedown. Apache responded by blocking all access from the bank's IPs including mirrors/other critical stuff...oops!

TheRealNGenius 4y ago

It is clear, do not store any critical code on Github, Backups need to be made elsewhere.

pm90 4y ago

As soon as the online coding challenge sites started being used for tech interviews, they got into the business of trying to prevent algo solutions from being shared. The real answer: don't do it, its not possible. You may have made some kind of contractual guarantee that you would prevent sharing of solutions, but that is your problem. This is stupid and silly and I will not be using hackerrank anymore.

jaysonqpt 4y ago

Many people doesn't seem to understand what pain individuals undergo when their content is taken offline by Google or Github due to a fake DMCA notice. They would have built something over years and one morning entire thing is taken offline due to a fake DMCA notice. Then they have to issue a counter notice with all its legal implications and it also exposes all your private information including full address, name and phone number(in a wrong country, you become target of thieves as well). Then it takes almost a month before content is restored. How can an individual fight this? How can you make companies misusing DMCA pay for it?

manquer 4y ago
You could fight them by counter claims and following the DMCA processes which on paper have stiff penalties for abuse. Practically I have never heard of major abuses being punished, so wouldn’t count on it. As a technologist perhaps solve it with tech, the first step would be to host your own content instead of using a third party app based in U.S. There is not a lot of deep tech to what GitHub gives as a githost, a self hosted gitlab serves just as well . Similarly for video photos etc, it is very hard and expensive to deliver video for millions/billions delivering video to few thousands is trivial. same thing for sub stack, medium etc Generally these take down notices don’t go after your DC/ISP domain host provider that easily unless you are in the cross hairs of powerful lobbies like how Libgen or PirateBay are , so self hosting helps a lot. If they do then there is distributed systems like IPFS etc can be resilient to notices.
- jaysonqpt 4y ago
  In theory, self hosting works. I have my content self hosted. In this case, they sent a DMCA request to Google and they delisted my webpage from Google. 99% of my traffic simply dropped. In addition, all Google properties picked up the DMCA action on Google index and started sending me warning and suspension of ads etc. I have sent a detailed counter notice. But even after 12 days, I am yet to hear back from Google. So self-hosting may work for Github, but not if you want presence in Google index.
  - 4y ago

andrew_ 4y ago

Ah, HackerRank. A major contributor to the shitshow that is present day software engineering interview processes.

gautamdivgi 4y ago
Is it really though? I thought the algorithms hiring process was popularized by google way before hacker rank was a company. As mentioned in a thread above, hacker rank and leetcode have made a major question bank available, but I don't think they started it. For that the blame lies elsewhere :)

Qem 4y ago

Stephen Wolfram is probably happy today. It's a shame an awesome project like SymPy can be nuked by some bogus perjury-riddled spam notice just like this.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

senden9 4y ago

It seams that HackerRank has about 27 DMCA take-downs on GitHub. See https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank https://github.com/github/dmca/search?q=HackerRank

alephnan 4y ago

Is there a list of companies that uses HackerRank for interviews?

epolanski 4y ago

One worrying thing: it's very cheap to send a DMCA, it's very expensive to defend from it.

vjerancrnjak 4y ago
When stuff has that much asymmetry, it is seriously broken.

allisdust 4y ago

I wish I have enough time to host a dedicated hackerrank (among other such business model companies) solutions website in a jurisdiction that doesn't care for dmca at all. This entire business model is shitty if it involves taking down the solutions for problems. None of this is novel and shouldn't be protected by anything (copyright or patents).

Karupan 4y ago

What scares me the most about this story is how easily it could've been a small software shop running their entire operations on GitHub getting DCMA'd without any merit, and just losing access to an important repo within 24 hours. And imagine they don't know about Hacker News. Or they posted something which didn't get enough upvotes for the offending company to respond and resolve it quickly. As a software developer, I've surrendered so much autonomy for the sake of convenience. When it works 99% of the time, things are awesome. But god forbid you are the 1%, cause there is usually no talking to real people to get support. The only recourse is shouting about it on Twitter/HN and hope someone notices, thereby leaving everything to chance - that just makes me sad to my core.

rootlocus 4y ago
Git is a distributed VCS, everyone has a clone of the repo, and at least one person has the latest main branch.
- meibo 4y ago
  A lot of open source projects rely on GitHub for their community, funding and discoverability. Dismissing that would be dishonest.
- tristan957 4y ago
  With GitHub allowing editing on the web using devcontainers and VSCode, someone might not have a copy of the repo locally. You could definitely still blame the company at hand for not having redundancy and having a single point of failure, but the point still stands.
tolapatola 4y ago
Why did github disable the whole website when a single page was reported? From the other notices I see that there are specific files which get removed. Doesn't even make sense

HeavyStorm 4y ago

It seems that this needs more attention. I'm considering removing my hr account in protest.

philderbeast 4y ago

https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-19-hackerrank.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-1... and still more DMCA notices going in since this post has been up, Looks like they still haven't learnt there lesson despite what they have said in this thread

eyear 4y ago

why HankerRank? Just use LeetCode!

carlgreene 4y ago

Lol 840 upvotes, 305 comments, not even a day old and it’s not on the front page. What a racket this place can be

Brian_K_White 4y ago

They are happy to accept any benefits that come from the "external service" operating on their behalf. If the "external service" wins some money or closes down some competition, do they give it back and say "look that was an external service, nothing to do with us"?

737min 4y ago

The bigger lesson could be that engineering recruiting via automated standardized quiz doesn’t have much of a future?

marksimi 4y ago

If you happened to create an account for these shitbirds, here's a handy link to delete it: https://www.hackerrank.com/settings/account https://www.hackerrank.com/settings/account

canyon289 4y ago

Hackerrank filed a DMCA notice against my blog because of a graph search example I had a written and I had 24 hours to full delete it or my blog would be deleted. As an individual this is so frustrating and if you mission is to support developers Vivek, I'm one developer that had quite the opposite experience. I frankly am very frustrated by your company and you hiring folks to shakedown developers writing poen blogs or docs. If any company tries to get me to do a hackerrank interview to join I'm going to decline. https://ravinkumar.com/ https://ravinkumar.com/