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I really never got the Catalonia crisis, especially around 2017, 2018. A region of approx. 8 million Catalonias who see themselves as Catalonians first and as S

I really never got the Catalonia crisis, especially around 2017, 2018. A region of approx. 8 million Catalonias who see themselves as Catalonians first and as Spanish second, with their own distinct history, vote with over 80% for their indipendence from Spain. People representing the interests of Catalonians go to the Spanish parlament, explain their goal of indipendence. And then stuff happens that I only read from bad China and bad Russia. Those political leaders are arrested. Police is sent in to stop the protests. Protests are suddenly called "the rebellion", people are arrested, the representatives of the indipendance movement have to flee Spain. Later it comes out that the police was seizing ballet boxes during the election. Spain then acts hard on the region, holds a gun against the head of many businesses located in the Catalonian region so they have to move out from there. So much more bad stuff has happened around that. I am just wondering - where is the outcry? I cannot stop overseeing the paralls to other conflicts around the world, very hot conflicts.

zozbot234 5y ago
- amackera 5y ago
  Minus the whole slavery thing, no?
  - McWobbleston 5y ago
    Yes, because Catalonia was resisting the fascist coup with their own revolutionary struggle to collectivize agriculture based on consent of the farmers, and worker ownership led by the labor unions who had been providing education and other community services for years. Its a lesser known fact that George Orwell wrote a book on his experiences there, and that the people's struggle inspired him so much he took up arms and joined them. The guy who's work people claim is an indictment of socialism, fought for it against the rise of fascism.
    - tough 5y ago
      I've never took to read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, might as well do so
    - qwytw 5y ago
      > The guy who's work people claim is an indictment of socialism, fought for it against the rise of fascism Orwell was a socialist before he went to Spain and remained one until his death regardless what some people might or might not claim.
    - bigbacaloa 5y ago
      The resistance to Franco was far stronger in Madrid than in Catalunya.
- gjulianm 5y ago
  This is completely wrong, sorry. The 1936-1939 Spanish civil war was a coup from the right-wing against the left-wing government. Of course, Catalan autonomy was an issue there too and one of the motivations for the coup, it but was nowhere near the main reason. And no, catalan independence is absolutely not at all equivalent to neo-confederate secessionism.
- adlpz 5y ago
  The Spanish civil war was not related at all to this issue and has no parallels whatsoever with the American civil war.
jeroenhd 5y ago
No country likes itself to be split apart, especially when a relatively rich part of the country tries to separate. I don't know about Spanish law, but serious attempts to break up the country could be considered treason where I'm from. On the other hand the whole civil war they fought 90 years ago makes the point quite complicated to the Catalan people. If California tried to leave the USA, the American government would do anything in their power to keep them from leaving. This is still quite different, as Spain isn't as loosely structured a government as the USA, but it's equally preposterous from a government point of view.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  >No country likes itself to be split apart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Happened because of the "Velvet Revolution" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution) which was yet again the people pushing the government to do something. I think when parent said "No country likes itself to be split apart" they refer to the current people in power (the government), not the people actually living in the nation. Otherwise all successful independence efforts can be considered "The country wanted to be split".
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      As the industrial heartland of Spain, a lot of non-Catalans live in Catalunya. They don't want to suddenly find themselves in a foreign country. That's not "the people in power" - that's ordinary people. There's quite a lot of nationalism in Spanish politics; when Franco died, there was no proper national reconciliation. Catalunya suffered quite badly in the Civil War and afterwards, and there should have been something like the SA Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Instead, they restored the monarchy, which was, as you'd expect, nationalist.
- 5y ago
gjulianm 5y ago
I'm not one to approve of the spanish government management of the crisis, which was terrible, but there are quite a lot of missing things here that are important to the story. > vote with over 80% for their indipendence from Spain The 2017 referendum vote ended up with 90% of votes for independence. However, only 43% of the census participated, mainly due to the fact that this referendum was not binding at all, and wasn't even "legal". Other referendums have had similar results. > And then stuff happens that I only read from bad China and bad Russia. I think regular media picked up on that with no issues. I remember reading detailed articles on Politico or The Guardian, for example. > Those political leaders are arrested. They were arrested not for explaining their goal of independence but because they exceeded their functions and competences when they held the referendum. Now, there's a lot of discussion to be had about the political motivations of those charges and the punishments, but I think the reality that they used public resources to hold a referendum that they legally couldn't hold is undeniable. That was the trigger, not just saying they wanted independence. > Spain then acts hard on the region, holds a gun against the head of many businesses located in the Catalonian region so they have to move out from there. That's not exactly what happened. Some companies legally moved headquarters from Catalonia to other regions, and some new investments were reduced, but those are mainly motivated by the legal insecurity about what was going to happen (and also, take into account that businesses are led by people with their own ideologies and biases of the situation). But it hasn't been that impactful overall. > I cannot stop overseeing the paralls to other conflicts around the world, very hot conflicts. For starters, other than the police action in the referendum, there's been a remarkable lack of violence on both sides. I mean, every 11th of september there are demonstrations for independence around the Diada (day of Catalonia) celebrations, political calls to action and such, and those things are not repressed. So I don't think pointing parallels to "very hot conflicts" is warranted.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Those are crushing numbers. 90% of 43% of voters who made a choice to vote and leave. Such overwhelming numbers. Do you think the other side would have gotten everyone who didn't vote?
  - 5y ago
bigDinosaur 5y ago
Part of what you are saying is misleading for the simple reason that Catalonia does not consist solely of Catalans (i.e. an ethnic group as opposed to just anyone living in that region). It is a part of Spain, and thus people from anywhere in Spain can move there. They did not participate in the referendum with the argument that it was illegitimate. The closest parallel is probably Quebec in Canada, for what it's worth. Highly contentious. One thing I've learnt is that if I want to keep my friends in these places, I don't mention politics.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  But Québec would've been independant if the referendum was successful. Even at 50+1, it is now clear that the federal government would've accepted the results even if they didn't explicitly said so back in 1995. So I think there's a huge difference, considering that in Catalonia the referendum was completely ignored
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    > that in Catalonia the referendum was completely ignored Because it was one-sided and those not agreeing with it didn't accept its legitimacy, hence not showing up to vote You don't just put a ballot box outside of the provisions of the state and call that a "referendum"
    - kiliancs 5y ago
      Since Catalans will always be a minority in Spain, what you are saying is "you just don't put a ballot".
      - raverbashing 4y ago
        Scots and Quebeckers referenda were official
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      The Spanish state doesn't make any provision at all for secession or independence movements; it's all criminal. They even have a special court for dealing with these matters. Any attempt to campaign for independence puts you beyond the law. In those circumstances, it's hardly surprising that independence campaigners broke a law.
dfxm12 5y ago
where is the outcry There were huge protests at the time, ala https://www.nbcnews.com/video/barcelona-protests-escalate-over-detention-of-catalan-independence-leader-1194694211624 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/barcelona-protests-escalate-ov... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41229486 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41229486 This happened very recently. I still vividly remember the stories on the radio. The artifacts are online & visible if you really cared to look. I'm not quite sure of the point of questions like this.
dc-programmer 5y ago
Catalonian secession would precipitate a similar push by the Basque region. From what I understand, these are two of the wealthiest areas in Spain, so them leaving would be a huge blow. Another reason for the lack of support is that other countries don’t want to create a precedent for similar breakaways. Catalonia would have a hard time joining the EU for this reason (similarly Scotland if they were to secede). The second reason hints at the explanation for the difference to other regions of the world. There is no hard and fast rule to apply to see why self-determinism is championed for one group but admonished for others. The sentiment is wholly a consequence of the motivations of the country in question and other interested nations. Any moral rhetoric deployed by nations to justify policy is just post hoc rationalization of the underlying pragmatic decision making calculus. I think most people implicitly understand this. Which is why I’m incredulous when people act surprised by governments acting hypocritically
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  Scotland was stabbed in the back by other citizens of the UK when Brexit won shortly after Scotland's remain referendum won.
  - dc-programmer 5y ago
    Yeah that was whack
the_gipsy 5y ago
That story is very one sided. The truth is that independence is near 50/50 overall, and always less in Barcelona. Both sides provoke each other, the independence parties also sabotage actual dialogue and continuously create conflict out of thin air.
- LaLaLand122 5y ago
  If I were in the Spanish government, I would give Catalonia a legal binding referendum. But splitting a country is not something you do in a weekend, we can't have Catalonia splitting with 50% + 1 of the votes just for "+1" to change his mind next week and Catalonia joining again. So I would give Catalonia a legal binding referendum... with a requirement of at least a 66% vote in favour. For each person that wants to remain, there would be two that don't; and if you are at that point, it's probably better just to let them go. Being a politician, I would surely try to at least round it up to 70%. They would never get 66% of the vote. If it looks risky, I could send the police in the Looney Tunes ship again... to vote! And if they refuse my offer... well, it's way easier to argue "I have given them the referendum, they are not taking it". Right now, Catalans have the easy "freedom" argument.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    > And if they refuse my offer... well, it's way easier to argue "I have given them the referendum, they are not taking it". Right now, Catalans have the easy "freedom" argument. This would change nothing. And they would never do a referendum on those terms. The whole thing, politically, is not meant to actually go through.
    - LaLaLand122 5y ago
      I would not be trying to solve the problem forever. I would be trying to effectively control it. The alternative was to send police to fire rubber bullets, with somebody losing an eye (https://www.spainenglish.com/2019/10/01/eye-rubber-bullet-catalan-referendum/ https://www.spainenglish.com/2019/10/01/eye-rubber-bullet-ca...), against people that wanted to... vote. Rubber bullets happen to be a weapon invented by the British to use during The Troubles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet). But even the British, the inventors, stopped used them. In fact, the Catalan local police were also banned from using them and were shot in Catalonia only because it came from the non-Catalan police (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-protests-referendum-police-latest-man-shot-eye-rubber-bullet-a7979271.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-pr...). (Not to mention all the other images of police violence). Being able to say "I have given them the referendum, they are not taking it" vs giving the other party such a great narrative "That's why we want independence. We are more civilized than them. They are aggressive animals." changes something.
kspacewalk2 5y ago
> vote with over 80% for their indipendence from Spain. 92% with a turnout of 43%. Hardly a resounding win for the independence side. Since the referendum was arguably illegal, a lot of people voted by staying home.
cracrecry 5y ago
>vote with over 80% for their indipendence from Spain. You should inform yourself before you talk. In Catalonia NEVER over 80% of the population voted for independence. This is BS. What happened is that a 50 something percent of the votes(not of the population) wanted to impose independence over the laws of the parliament that require at least 2/3 majorities for anything substantial. >And then stuff happens that I only read from bad China and bad Russia. More BS. How many people died on that rebellion? How many died in the US Black lives matter incidents? How many people die on South Africa incidents each year? >Spain then acts hard on the region, holds a gun against the head of many businesses located in the Catalonian region Nobody hold a gun against business but the independentists. They just could move freely around national territory, protecting their assets against radicals.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  >More BS. How many people died on that rebellion? How many died in the US Black lives matter incidents? How many people die on South Africa incidents each year? This is whataboutism, I don't see how those are relevant to the situation in spain
mzs 5y ago
You can't really look at it in isolation and hope to understand, instead you need the context of history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Catalonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Catalonia

zozbot234 5y ago

amackera 5y ago
Minus the whole slavery thing, no?
- McWobbleston 5y ago
  Yes, because Catalonia was resisting the fascist coup with their own revolutionary struggle to collectivize agriculture based on consent of the farmers, and worker ownership led by the labor unions who had been providing education and other community services for years. Its a lesser known fact that George Orwell wrote a book on his experiences there, and that the people's struggle inspired him so much he took up arms and joined them. The guy who's work people claim is an indictment of socialism, fought for it against the rise of fascism.
  - tough 5y ago
    I've never took to read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, might as well do so
  - qwytw 5y ago
    > The guy who's work people claim is an indictment of socialism, fought for it against the rise of fascism Orwell was a socialist before he went to Spain and remained one until his death regardless what some people might or might not claim.
  - bigbacaloa 5y ago
    The resistance to Franco was far stronger in Madrid than in Catalunya.
gjulianm 5y ago
This is completely wrong, sorry. The 1936-1939 Spanish civil war was a coup from the right-wing against the left-wing government. Of course, Catalan autonomy was an issue there too and one of the motivations for the coup, it but was nowhere near the main reason. And no, catalan independence is absolutely not at all equivalent to neo-confederate secessionism.
adlpz 5y ago
The Spanish civil war was not related at all to this issue and has no parallels whatsoever with the American civil war.

jeroenhd 5y ago

No country likes itself to be split apart, especially when a relatively rich part of the country tries to separate. I don't know about Spanish law, but serious attempts to break up the country could be considered treason where I'm from. On the other hand the whole civil war they fought 90 years ago makes the point quite complicated to the Catalan people. If California tried to leave the USA, the American government would do anything in their power to keep them from leaving. This is still quite different, as Spain isn't as loosely structured a government as the USA, but it's equally preposterous from a government point of view.

HideousKojima 5y ago
>No country likes itself to be split apart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia
- capableweb 5y ago
  Happened because of the "Velvet Revolution" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution) which was yet again the people pushing the government to do something. I think when parent said "No country likes itself to be split apart" they refer to the current people in power (the government), not the people actually living in the nation. Otherwise all successful independence efforts can be considered "The country wanted to be split".
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    As the industrial heartland of Spain, a lot of non-Catalans live in Catalunya. They don't want to suddenly find themselves in a foreign country. That's not "the people in power" - that's ordinary people. There's quite a lot of nationalism in Spanish politics; when Franco died, there was no proper national reconciliation. Catalunya suffered quite badly in the Civil War and afterwards, and there should have been something like the SA Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Instead, they restored the monarchy, which was, as you'd expect, nationalist.
5y ago

gjulianm 5y ago

I'm not one to approve of the spanish government management of the crisis, which was terrible, but there are quite a lot of missing things here that are important to the story. > vote with over 80% for their indipendence from Spain The 2017 referendum vote ended up with 90% of votes for independence. However, only 43% of the census participated, mainly due to the fact that this referendum was not binding at all, and wasn't even "legal". Other referendums have had similar results. > And then stuff happens that I only read from bad China and bad Russia. I think regular media picked up on that with no issues. I remember reading detailed articles on Politico or The Guardian, for example. > Those political leaders are arrested. They were arrested not for explaining their goal of independence but because they exceeded their functions and competences when they held the referendum. Now, there's a lot of discussion to be had about the political motivations of those charges and the punishments, but I think the reality that they used public resources to hold a referendum that they legally couldn't hold is undeniable. That was the trigger, not just saying they wanted independence. > Spain then acts hard on the region, holds a gun against the head of many businesses located in the Catalonian region so they have to move out from there. That's not exactly what happened. Some companies legally moved headquarters from Catalonia to other regions, and some new investments were reduced, but those are mainly motivated by the legal insecurity about what was going to happen (and also, take into account that businesses are led by people with their own ideologies and biases of the situation). But it hasn't been that impactful overall. > I cannot stop overseeing the paralls to other conflicts around the world, very hot conflicts. For starters, other than the police action in the referendum, there's been a remarkable lack of violence on both sides. I mean, every 11th of september there are demonstrations for independence around the Diada (day of Catalonia) celebrations, political calls to action and such, and those things are not repressed. So I don't think pointing parallels to "very hot conflicts" is warranted.

ipaddr 5y ago
Those are crushing numbers. 90% of 43% of voters who made a choice to vote and leave. Such overwhelming numbers. Do you think the other side would have gotten everyone who didn't vote?
- 5y ago

bigDinosaur 5y ago

Part of what you are saying is misleading for the simple reason that Catalonia does not consist solely of Catalans (i.e. an ethnic group as opposed to just anyone living in that region). It is a part of Spain, and thus people from anywhere in Spain can move there. They did not participate in the referendum with the argument that it was illegitimate. The closest parallel is probably Quebec in Canada, for what it's worth. Highly contentious. One thing I've learnt is that if I want to keep my friends in these places, I don't mention politics.

mardifoufs 5y ago
But Québec would've been independant if the referendum was successful. Even at 50+1, it is now clear that the federal government would've accepted the results even if they didn't explicitly said so back in 1995. So I think there's a huge difference, considering that in Catalonia the referendum was completely ignored
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > that in Catalonia the referendum was completely ignored Because it was one-sided and those not agreeing with it didn't accept its legitimacy, hence not showing up to vote You don't just put a ballot box outside of the provisions of the state and call that a "referendum"
  - kiliancs 5y ago
    Since Catalans will always be a minority in Spain, what you are saying is "you just don't put a ballot".
    - raverbashing 4y ago
      Scots and Quebeckers referenda were official
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    The Spanish state doesn't make any provision at all for secession or independence movements; it's all criminal. They even have a special court for dealing with these matters. Any attempt to campaign for independence puts you beyond the law. In those circumstances, it's hardly surprising that independence campaigners broke a law.

dfxm12 5y ago

where is the outcry There were huge protests at the time, ala https://www.nbcnews.com/video/barcelona-protests-escalate-over-detention-of-catalan-independence-leader-1194694211624 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/barcelona-protests-escalate-ov... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41229486 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41229486 This happened very recently. I still vividly remember the stories on the radio. The artifacts are online & visible if you really cared to look. I'm not quite sure of the point of questions like this.

dc-programmer 5y ago

Catalonian secession would precipitate a similar push by the Basque region. From what I understand, these are two of the wealthiest areas in Spain, so them leaving would be a huge blow. Another reason for the lack of support is that other countries don’t want to create a precedent for similar breakaways. Catalonia would have a hard time joining the EU for this reason (similarly Scotland if they were to secede). The second reason hints at the explanation for the difference to other regions of the world. There is no hard and fast rule to apply to see why self-determinism is championed for one group but admonished for others. The sentiment is wholly a consequence of the motivations of the country in question and other interested nations. Any moral rhetoric deployed by nations to justify policy is just post hoc rationalization of the underlying pragmatic decision making calculus. I think most people implicitly understand this. Which is why I’m incredulous when people act surprised by governments acting hypocritically

BeFlatXIII 5y ago
Scotland was stabbed in the back by other citizens of the UK when Brexit won shortly after Scotland's remain referendum won.
- dc-programmer 5y ago
  Yeah that was whack

the_gipsy 5y ago

That story is very one sided. The truth is that independence is near 50/50 overall, and always less in Barcelona. Both sides provoke each other, the independence parties also sabotage actual dialogue and continuously create conflict out of thin air.

LaLaLand122 5y ago
If I were in the Spanish government, I would give Catalonia a legal binding referendum. But splitting a country is not something you do in a weekend, we can't have Catalonia splitting with 50% + 1 of the votes just for "+1" to change his mind next week and Catalonia joining again. So I would give Catalonia a legal binding referendum... with a requirement of at least a 66% vote in favour. For each person that wants to remain, there would be two that don't; and if you are at that point, it's probably better just to let them go. Being a politician, I would surely try to at least round it up to 70%. They would never get 66% of the vote. If it looks risky, I could send the police in the Looney Tunes ship again... to vote! And if they refuse my offer... well, it's way easier to argue "I have given them the referendum, they are not taking it". Right now, Catalans have the easy "freedom" argument.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  > And if they refuse my offer... well, it's way easier to argue "I have given them the referendum, they are not taking it". Right now, Catalans have the easy "freedom" argument. This would change nothing. And they would never do a referendum on those terms. The whole thing, politically, is not meant to actually go through.
  - LaLaLand122 5y ago
    I would not be trying to solve the problem forever. I would be trying to effectively control it. The alternative was to send police to fire rubber bullets, with somebody losing an eye (https://www.spainenglish.com/2019/10/01/eye-rubber-bullet-catalan-referendum/ https://www.spainenglish.com/2019/10/01/eye-rubber-bullet-ca...), against people that wanted to... vote. Rubber bullets happen to be a weapon invented by the British to use during The Troubles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet). But even the British, the inventors, stopped used them. In fact, the Catalan local police were also banned from using them and were shot in Catalonia only because it came from the non-Catalan police (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-protests-referendum-police-latest-man-shot-eye-rubber-bullet-a7979271.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-pr...). (Not to mention all the other images of police violence). Being able to say "I have given them the referendum, they are not taking it" vs giving the other party such a great narrative "That's why we want independence. We are more civilized than them. They are aggressive animals." changes something.

kspacewalk2 5y ago

> vote with over 80% for their indipendence from Spain. 92% with a turnout of 43%. Hardly a resounding win for the independence side. Since the referendum was arguably illegal, a lot of people voted by staying home.

cracrecry 5y ago

>vote with over 80% for their indipendence from Spain. You should inform yourself before you talk. In Catalonia NEVER over 80% of the population voted for independence. This is BS. What happened is that a 50 something percent of the votes(not of the population) wanted to impose independence over the laws of the parliament that require at least 2/3 majorities for anything substantial. >And then stuff happens that I only read from bad China and bad Russia. More BS. How many people died on that rebellion? How many died in the US Black lives matter incidents? How many people die on South Africa incidents each year? >Spain then acts hard on the region, holds a gun against the head of many businesses located in the Catalonian region Nobody hold a gun against business but the independentists. They just could move freely around national territory, protecting their assets against radicals.

mardifoufs 5y ago
>More BS. How many people died on that rebellion? How many died in the US Black lives matter incidents? How many people die on South Africa incidents each year? This is whataboutism, I don't see how those are relevant to the situation in spain

mzs 5y ago

You can't really look at it in isolation and hope to understand, instead you need the context of history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Catalonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Catalonia