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On leaving Turkey (2021)
- SenpaiHurricane 4y agoAs a Turkish engineer who left Turkey 3.5 years ago, I wish you good luck! You will feel alone, confused and behind at the beginning but later on you will adopt European life style and you will realize there is a huge world out there to not belong a single country. You made a great choose, enjoy it!
- _qvu2 4y agoThank you for the good wishes! Tbh didn't feel much loneliness since I know few people here in Germany and also nearby countries. Getting adapted to a new country is a sweet experience. Enjoying it so far.
- weatherlite 4y agoIt is a very very long journey. Not trying to discourage you or anything but have you even had your first German winter?
- _qvu2 4y agoIt was already winter when I arrived. I've seen -5 degrees. Although my friend told me things can get colder, I think I've had a glimpse of how cold it can be.
- weatherlite 4y agoWish you all the best!
- jdrc 4y agoInteresting, what are the things that a Turk would need to adapt to?
- SenpaiHurricane 4y agoThings I learnt so far: - Slowing down (Turkish people always in a rush)' - Saying 'NO' (we tend to say YES a lot eventhough we think it is a no situation, both in your real life and work life) - Every people I met, they already visited most of the countries in Europe, so they are travelling all world and met with different people from different cultures. Before I came Europe I only visited one country other than Turkey. It takes some time learn other cultures and how to behave... - Politics is stupid. - There are other problems than economy, middle east, religion etc. People are talking about sustanability, climate change, electronic cars etc. There are other things but these are the ones come to my mind so far :)
- aranelsurion 4y agoAbout the last one, I remember being positively surprised by how little 'happens' in terms of news in Germany, compared to back in Turkey. Leaving that feeling of impending doom, as if something bad is waiting just around the corner, and most of your small talk now being about shitty weather or whatever. Then COVID and Russia happened, and now the world is catching up in doom and gloom. :)
- SenpaiHurricane 4y agoYes indeed. Same in NL. On the other hand, I find these attitudes hypocritical when it comes to war and Ukraine. As if suddenly, these people realized war is bad. Turkish people have been facing it since 2003, if we talk about terrorism we may have to go back even further. The Syrian War was never discussed, but now everyone is talking about the Ukraine War, and no action is taken instead of painting big buildings yellow and blue.
- t43562 4y agoNot being able to bend the rules. Sorting rubbish. The need to get 3 quotes before you get anyone to work on your house The fact that not everything is a conspiracy Foreigners sometimes prefer to finish work properly rather than fast - e.g. without leaving wires sticking out of the wall in a big shopping mall etc. Non Turks aren't all accustomed to you going up and talking to their baby as a total stranger Not having toilets that squirt water on your bum like they do in Turkey. You can live in a nearly complete Turkish bubble in the UK and Germany is probably even more like that. This would be sad. Turkish food, for example, might sometimes be good but the world has a lot to offer and I've met a lot of Turks who won't try anything (Brits are probably slightly better on average but many are just as bad).
- agumonkey 4y agohow many (and which) country did you go to ?
- SenpaiHurricane 4y agoAfter I moved to NL, I have visited 9 different countries.
- picardo 4y agoGood luck. My family emigrated to US from Turkey in the 90s. Back then, the inflation was over a hundred percent. It costs millions of liras to buy a dollar. Now the history is repeating itself. The value of lira is tanking and inflation is running amuck. The people governing the country have changed, but the systemic rot is still there.
- dark-star 4y agoThe lira was devalued 1000000:1 in the 90s. So if a dollar was 1000000 lira back then that is actually a similar figure as stated in the article of 1.8 lira for the dollar. I have a 1000000 lira note right here that a friend gave me around the year 2000. I kept it because I liked the big number on it. It looks special. Even then he mentioned that it was only about a dollar or two
- thriftwy 4y agoI wonder why he did not consider working remotely. Getting a low end European or even American developer salary while living in Turkey should be pretty kushy. You can also live in the mediterranean away from that poorly built mass housing he described.
- notch656a 4y ago>Turkish citizen with Kurdish origin That may answer your question why they may not be excited to stay in Turkey.
- deleted 4y ago
- notch656a 4y agoI'm shocked, but encouraged to hear, there are essentially no generational effects you note of the oppression Kurdish people experienced. This sentiment may not be repeatable concerning effects of Turkish government on Kurdish peoples outside the border of Turkey, particularly in Bashur Kurdistan and Rojava (especially Afrin Canton where hundreds of Kurdish civilians were killed in connection with events proximal to what Turkish government refers to as 'Operation Olive Branch'). I can't imagine there are warm fuzzies inside knowing your tax money goes to murdering fellow Kurds near your borders.
- bombcar 4y agoFun fact: the distance from Istanbul to Munich is about the same as from Des Moines to New York.
- brimble 4y agoI think the reason so many surprising distance comparisons in Europe involve Germany is that most people have in their heads that Germany's farther West than it is. And that it doesn't stretch as far East as it does. Maybe it's a leftover from Cold War-era maps.
- jdrc 4y agoalso because munich is a major hub airport
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- istanbul7 4y ago
- mda 4y agoThis is uncalled for. You might not agree with his comments but please keep it civil.
- egeozcan 4y agoWell thanks for providing us a good example for his comments about the average citizen. (The comment I'm replying to says that the dogs are looking for meat while heroes are fighting for the country).
- Bombthecat 4y agoAnd he is likely writing that from a safe job in Europe, not Turkey.. It's fascinating how people develop so super strong feelings about "their home" while not living there.
- _gfwu 4y agoHow did you find an apartment in Munich? My girlfriend is in a very similar situation as you. Also, how long did you wait between the visa appointment at the embassy and you getting the visa? hoşgeldiniz to Germany!
- password4321 4y agoPaging λnicbou as per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23103251#23109401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23103251#23109401 and https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/find-a-flat-in-berlin https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/find-a-flat-in-berlin > My niche is "make knowledge of Germany approachable to non-Germans".
- _qvu2 4y agoThank you! I had known a friend who helped me with apartments. Generally it is quite difficult to find an apartment that has a good price/quality ratio. As for the visa, I got it by post in 7-8 days after the appointment.
- egeozcan 4y agoI've also left and your reasoning is more or less the same as mine. For me it's been more than a decade, and Germany is filled with opportunities. I wish you all the best, bol şans, viel Spaß.
- _qvu2 4y agoThat was also the general desire among many of my friends and colleagues. So far I'm happy with the life in Germany and Europe. Thank you for the good wishes!
- sedatk 4y ago73% of Turkish youth wants to leave the country: https://www.duvarenglish.com/report-finds-73-percent-of-young-people-in-turkey-want-to-live-abroad-news-60382 https://www.duvarenglish.com/report-finds-73-percent-of-youn...
- _qvu2 4y agoThat's an unfortunate reality for the country, and its future. I believe many of them at some point would like to return in the case that the current political and social environment were to get better. It is what it is now.
- jimbob45 4y agoHow fair is that though? I would imagine that a majority of individuals in many countries around the world would like to like in the US, China, Japan, or Europe if they could. Is 73% markedly higher than we would see in India, Iran, Pakistan, or Nigeria?
- true_religion 4y agoEveryone wants to come to the US in their youth, then they become 30ish and desperately want to move back “home” to raise their kids in peace. There is a cycle of wanting economic benefit, then finding that it’s too hard to actually spend it in the US political climate.
- themitigating 4y agoPeace as in avoiding war? I would think Europe and the US are the safest countries to be in.
- true_religion 4y agoThe last time my country was at war September 1900. We didn't even participate in the World Wars since by the time we made the long exodus to the European front the war was over. So our track record is pretty good, compared to the US who hasn't seen a single decade in its existence without being at war with someone. However, when I said 'peace' I meant in the interpersonal sense. The US is nice, but there's something to be said about living in a homogenous environment identical to that of your youth.
- pacija 4y agoIm ZK, Agent aus Türkei Deutschland, Deutschland, alles ist vorbei! :)
- kaeruct 4y agoThis really resonates with me. I made a similar move to Germany 4 years ago from a different 3rd world country. I find it quite sad how so many capable people leave their motherland because of lack of opportunities. The rich countries keep getting the best people from countries worse off, it seems like a vicious cycle.
- sprash 4y agoNo reason to feel sad. Simply move back to your own country and start fixing problems. Your country needs you. Germans probably feel sad too about the fact that their country is turned into a generic settlement area for economic opportunists.
- omegaworks 4y ago>Simply move back to your own country and start fixing problems. Spoken with the confidence (and arrogance?) of someone that's not aware of how rich countries help to create the problems that cause young people to flee their homelands.
- sprash 4y agoThe people living in Germany did not cause inflation in Turkey.
- themitigating 4y agoAre you sure? Isn't the current inflation and investment issues in Turkey caused by Erdogan? He remains in power by blaming "the west" without providing details and using nationalism to gain votes [1]. He then also gets votes by pandering to conservative Muslims.[2][3]. It's similar to what's going on in the US [1]https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/13/erdogan-blames-turkeys-currency-woes-on-foreign-financial-tools-as-central-bank-reserves-fall.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/13/erdogan-blames-turkeys-curre... [2]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14683857.2019.1580828 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14683857.2019.1...
- aranelsurion 4y ago
- forkLding 4y agoThe Chinese call this "running" (there is a Chinese character that is worded the same as run in pinyin and is used to term as escaping/leaving from China), something that has been increasing with the iron fist of the CCP coming crashing down a lot more often, especially what has happened with Shanghai.
- oh_sigh 4y agoIs there a positive/negative connotation with it? In English to "escape from a situation", the implication is that the situation was bad and you are saving yourself from it. But if you "run from a situation", it generally implies something like lack of courage.
- farslan 4y agoFor anyone interested, I made the complete opposite change and moved from the U.S to Turkey: https://arslan.io/2020/12/20/why-i-left-the-us/ https://arslan.io/2020/12/20/why-i-left-the-us/
- Saint_Genet 4y agoWhat made you make the decision to move to a country ruled by a autocratic far right politician? You don’t seem to touch upon that in the link provided
- Efimeridopolis 4y agogoogle his name and you'll get an idea, I think.
- dkural 4y agoWhat're we supposed to find?
- artogahr 4y agoNot really adding anything to the conversation, but have been following you for a long time and felt interesting to see you here. Selamlar.
- tradertef 4y agoWell, you are an outlier. Living in US for more than 20 years, I rarely see folks going back especially last couple of years. The ones I know who go back either have rich families or are politically connected. I understand that is might not be the case for you.
- cko 4y agoDo you get paid in USD/euro, and are thus shielded from currency risk? Some time ago I found that Antalya had low rents and thought it would be nice to live by the beach for cheap. But some things I heard bothered me, like smoking and poor air quality in general. The political stuff kind of makes me uncomfortable but not sure if that's rational.
- scandox 4y ago> mostly brown I too am mostly brown. Love this way of putting it for some reason. For so long I wanted Europe to encourage Turkey to join the EU and I feel very sad about how negatively it all turned out. While we have responded somewhat coherently to the war on Ukraine, I feel like this is a temporary moment of clarity. In other respects I feel like our drive to look outwards and take risks is very low.
- sh33sh 4y ago
- dang 4y agoPlease don't post in the flamewar style to HN. I know these things can bring up strong feelings but nationalistic and political flamewars (which this sort of comment tends to lead to) are against the spirit of this site and only make things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- nnoitra 4y ago
- thelight1 4y ago
- tradertef 4y agoOther than leaving Turkey part, I am fascinated by Ahmet's background. He says he has graduated from semi-religious high school (IHL?) and did not attend university. The fact that he self-taught coding and English is amazing to me and not very common. Good job and best luck with your life.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- nnoitra 4y agoBig mistake to go to Germany.
- golergka 4y agoIronic — I'm reading this in my Istanbul airbnb, having left Russia in total emergency just month and a half ago, living out of a single suitcase, without any idea of where I'm going to live. And just before I opened this blog post, I was thinking about how comfortable and surprisingly modern Turkey appears to be, and if I, like a lot of my friends, should later apply for a citizen's permit here.
- pelasaco 4y agoI'm german and hate every thing in Germany. I love to live in Portugal. Lot of Portuguese people that I know don't understand it. Lot of germans that I know understand it pretty well ;)
- yawz 4y agoIstanbul is a beautiful city. It's full of colors, tastes, contrasts, different experiences. But it takes time to feel like you belong somewhere. With this belonging, we start to become much more critical. You get more concerned and more affected by day-to-day aspects of life that you don't pay much attention at first (or you don't even have to pay attention to those at first). Enjoy Istanbul! It's a beautiful time of the year, too. I wish you best of luck in your future adventures.
- _qvu2 4y agoI was living in Istanbul before I moved to Germany. You will, too, soon start noticing the serious problems I at some point thought are not solvable any time soon. Some of them are not solvable AT ALL. Like the earthquake risk that scientists have been warning about since years. An earthquake as strong as 7.0 in a city of over 15 million people with almost no preparation. That's a nightmare.
- aunty_helen 4y agoOf the 6 reasons to leave I would suggest two of them are completely valid, career and economic hardship. The other 4 are grass being greener. Unknown future, I would suggest Germany has the most unknown future out of any country right now. Country leadership, reads like a lot of countries, even a cynical US take. Too much politics, literally politics. Architecture, this one is interesting. If you're comparing a postcard or even tourist perspective to a city that you've grown up and lived in your whole life, you will be able to see warts and all what you know but nothing from the city you're comparing it to. I've had the privilege now of living in a bunch of different cities for enough time to get to know them more than just as a tourist. I would suggest 2 months of time at a minimum to get the vibe, 4-6 to actually know a place and then the more subtle details continue to be noticed / learned of from then on. A concrete example of something you won't understand about a city until you've lived there is the postal service / how easy it is to recieve things. I had a drivers license circumnavigate the globe after it was returned to sender thanks to the efficency of the Spanish postal service and their ridiculous Franco era hand cart delivery.
- telchior 4y agoThe author thinks Turkey may have a civil war. Do you really think that Germany is so "unknown" that it may have a war? Most corruption indexes rank Turkey as being pretty damn corrupt, which would seem to be pretty well confirmed by having had its government and judiciary turned into the whipping boys of an all-powerful dictator. Do you see that in Germany's future? Because... why? The prospect of high energy prices for a few years? Expats like to hang out in countries like Thailand, ruled by a military junta, and opine that it's all fine and dandy, what could possibly be better!? It's remarkable, really.
- slimebart 4y agoTurkey has recently had a spate of journalists going missing. That alone might indicate a world of difference to other political systems.
- aunty_helen 4y ago
- MauroIksem 4y agoI could change Turkey to Algeria and this would read like something written by an Algerian after moving to Turkey. My point is, the grass is always greener on the other side.
- _qvu2 4y agoI get your point. There is always someone who has it worse than me. Point being that, it doesn't make sense for a human to stop looking for a better life.
- DSingularity 4y ago> Then we end up with corruption. The party members milked us so much, yet the milk hasn’t run out yet. This is how rich Turkey is. So rich, with all the stealing, it’s still standing. This statement is casually thrown around generally by those who find themselves belonging to the other side (politically speaking). But where is the evidence? I’ve visited verifiably — as in the names of the leaders appear in all those leaks over the years — corrupt countries. The corruption shows in the disparities in societies. For example, access to tap water, heating, good roads, and other infrastructural types. For example, accessibility of education. For example, the purchasing power of the averaging citizen as measured in concrete terms (eg housing, food, etc) not in dollars. In the corrupt countries the infrastructure is generally terrible. The citizens can barely afford food. There are no universities. In turkey it seems like non of this holds. So, how is Erdogan corrupt? Is it just because OP is in dogmatic opposition to his ideals? IIRC the genesis of Erdogans political career is his management of Istanbul as mayor to improve the quality of life of all of its citizens. I believe that counts for something in a sense that he deserves the benefit of the doubt and the burden is on the accusers to show concrete evidence of corruption. Something like how Kushner received billions from the Saudis after the end of Trumps term.
- wussboy 4y agoA simplified version of your post reads thus: "Corrupt countries often have poor services. Turkey does not have poor services, therefor it is not corrupt." But surely that's incorrect.
- mr_really_now 4y agoTo an observer who has visited Turkey several times both before and after Erdogan, the difference in improvements is literally night and day. Simple example: before, one couldn't even receive proper medical attention (and it would literally bankrupt you if you did). After: health care is a free service and the country has way more hospitals than ever before.
- DSingularity 4y agoYeah I agree that is incorrect but I disagree to that reading. Just use logic. If a nation is compromised by systemic corruption what do you think will happen? I believe corruption is like cancer in that it will seek to plunder anything in a non-discriminating manner. All the wealth of a state is up for grabs. What do you think will happen to money allocated for infrastructure and services for the average (weak) citizen? Roads, hospitals, services, etc? Do you think the corrupt ruler and the cronies that enable him will resist the temptation to rob these endeavors? If the cronies rob, do you think the ruling authority will a) look the other way or b) prosecute the crony and risk a backlash?
- mr_really_now 4y ago
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- dang 4y agoI would guess it has something to do with your account seeming agenda-driven and crossing into personal attack with the first comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31105517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31105517). Neither of those things is what this site is for, as you'd see if you reviewed https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- 2wrist 4y agoThat was well written and a good read. That feeling of having to move to have opportunity at a better life I can understand completely. best of luck to you.