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I looked up the definitions: Theft: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property. Inflation: a continuing rise in the general price level u

I looked up the definitions: Theft: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property. Inflation: a continuing rise in the general price level usually attributed to an increase in the volume of money and credit relative to available goods and services. There you go, proved you wrong.

spawarotti 5y ago
I think they meant that "a continuing rise in the general price level usually attributed to an increase in the volume of money and credit relative to available goods and services." is theft.
ehejdud 5y ago
zmgsabst 5y ago
In definition 1: > as by embezzlement In definition 2: > attributed to … volume of money and credit We’d be able to conclude that “inflation is theft” from noting that inflation is driven by “printing money”, whether paper or credit, and that the benefits illicitly go to those in control of the financial system to the detriment of others — which the other poster would likely characterize as “embezzlement”. So you proved that person right — at least to people who view the Federal Reserve and large banks as in a self interested cabal. By embezzling the funds they print, eg giving special access to friends, they engage in theft towards society at large.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ajross 5y ago
  > from noting that inflation is driven by “printing money” It's not. Or it can be, in the case of the linked article referencing Argentine hyperinflation. But what we're seeing right now isn't. The US government does not, as a rule, "print money" to create funds. That happens in the banking system. Like for example the government can sell a bond; existing holders of statically invested dollars (foreign governments who sold stuff here, say) give the federal government a bunch of cash in exchange for the promise of interest paid over time. Now the government spends that money (on a pandemic relief bill, say), putting it into circulation among a different demographic (poorer people and not money market investors) who do different things with it (buy consumer goods). Well, now demand for those consumer goods is higher than it would have been. If you're in a pandemic trying to keep the economy afloat, that's a good thing. But if you overshoot by a bit, then there's too much money for the goods available. Inflation! Despite no money having been created; it just changed hands. Now do the same thing for a supply shock: if manufacturers scale back production (due to a pandemic) and then can't scale it back up fast enough (chip shortage!) then prices... go up! Inflation again! Likewise trade goods can create supply shocks too. Maybe some product (Russian petroleum) can't be obtained anymore. Less fuel to go around, but all the existing consumers have the same requirements and start bidding against each other for it. Yup, inflation! People who repeat this "bitcoin can't inflate because mining" idea are selling you a line, basically. And the proof is, in fact, that crypto has been basically flat vs. traditional currencies at this very moment where we're seeing global inflation. If you could ever see this effect, this would be the time to measure it. And it's not there.
jonhohle 5y ago
I don’t disagree that it’s not, by definition, theft. It is, however, an obscured tax on savers, a transfer of wealth from lender to debtor. At least in the US inflation is the result of decoupling dollars from gold and the direct theft of gold and silver from the citizens by the government.
- jhgb 5y ago
  > a transfer of wealth from borrowers to debtors What's the difference between a borrower and a debtor?
  - jonhohle 5y ago
    Sorry, s/borrower/lender
- Retric 5y ago
  It’s a tax on people holding the currency not all savers. Hold stock, a different currency, copper, paintings etc and you avoid losing out to US inflation.
  - jonhohle 5y ago
    I’d consider equities and real property separate from savings.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      That's the wrong way of looking at it, which is why you arrived at the wrong conclusion.
      - jonhohle 5y ago
        Savings is explicitly idle money. Illiquid holdings are very different from cash that can deployed immediately. You certainly don’t hold 100% property and by definition that unspent money is savings. Savings can certainly be used to purchase securities, commodities, property, but then it’s no longer savings and is an investment.
slv77 5y ago
High inflation usually goes hand-in-hand with some degree of corruption that immensely benefits the connected and powerful. In Venezuela the government implemented exchange rates controls which were much more favorable then market based rates. Those with privilege and connections could purchase dollars at the official rate and then sell them at market rates at 10x what they paid for them. By this method an immense measure of the nations wealth could be expropriated. Commodities can be siphoned from producers with price controls and then liquidated at market rates. Eventually asset owners can be forced to sell when they can’t produce what is demanded at below market prices. Those that are close to decision makers can front run markets as the everything degenerates into a command economy. While not all inflation is theft inflation can facilitate theft on an epic scale. At some point all economic and political power shifts to those that benefit from inflation and it becomes politically impossible to “fix” inflation as power derived from it.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  High inflation hurts, proportionally, higher net worth individuals more than low net worth individuals.
  - slv77 5y ago
    Inflation benefits debtors while it penalizes savers but the poorest segment of society is neither savers (as they have no disposable income) or debtors (as nobody will lend to them) and are hurt the most from inflation. A high net worth individual may lose expected future income due to inflation but someone that is poor may not eat today because of inflation. Eventually when inflation gets bad enough and real rates are negative producers will simply sit on commodities rather then distribute them. Leaving the oil in the ground maybe a better looking term wealth preservation strategy then pumping and selling the oil.

spawarotti 5y ago

I think they meant that "a continuing rise in the general price level usually attributed to an increase in the volume of money and credit relative to available goods and services." is theft.

ehejdud 5y ago

zmgsabst 5y ago

In definition 1: > as by embezzlement In definition 2: > attributed to … volume of money and credit We’d be able to conclude that “inflation is theft” from noting that inflation is driven by “printing money”, whether paper or credit, and that the benefits illicitly go to those in control of the financial system to the detriment of others — which the other poster would likely characterize as “embezzlement”. So you proved that person right — at least to people who view the Federal Reserve and large banks as in a self interested cabal. By embezzling the funds they print, eg giving special access to friends, they engage in theft towards society at large.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ajross 5y ago
> from noting that inflation is driven by “printing money” It's not. Or it can be, in the case of the linked article referencing Argentine hyperinflation. But what we're seeing right now isn't. The US government does not, as a rule, "print money" to create funds. That happens in the banking system. Like for example the government can sell a bond; existing holders of statically invested dollars (foreign governments who sold stuff here, say) give the federal government a bunch of cash in exchange for the promise of interest paid over time. Now the government spends that money (on a pandemic relief bill, say), putting it into circulation among a different demographic (poorer people and not money market investors) who do different things with it (buy consumer goods). Well, now demand for those consumer goods is higher than it would have been. If you're in a pandemic trying to keep the economy afloat, that's a good thing. But if you overshoot by a bit, then there's too much money for the goods available. Inflation! Despite no money having been created; it just changed hands. Now do the same thing for a supply shock: if manufacturers scale back production (due to a pandemic) and then can't scale it back up fast enough (chip shortage!) then prices... go up! Inflation again! Likewise trade goods can create supply shocks too. Maybe some product (Russian petroleum) can't be obtained anymore. Less fuel to go around, but all the existing consumers have the same requirements and start bidding against each other for it. Yup, inflation! People who repeat this "bitcoin can't inflate because mining" idea are selling you a line, basically. And the proof is, in fact, that crypto has been basically flat vs. traditional currencies at this very moment where we're seeing global inflation. If you could ever see this effect, this would be the time to measure it. And it's not there.

jonhohle 5y ago

I don’t disagree that it’s not, by definition, theft. It is, however, an obscured tax on savers, a transfer of wealth from lender to debtor. At least in the US inflation is the result of decoupling dollars from gold and the direct theft of gold and silver from the citizens by the government.

jhgb 5y ago
> a transfer of wealth from borrowers to debtors What's the difference between a borrower and a debtor?
- jonhohle 5y ago
  Sorry, s/borrower/lender
Retric 5y ago
It’s a tax on people holding the currency not all savers. Hold stock, a different currency, copper, paintings etc and you avoid losing out to US inflation.
- jonhohle 5y ago
  I’d consider equities and real property separate from savings.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    That's the wrong way of looking at it, which is why you arrived at the wrong conclusion.
    - jonhohle 5y ago
      Savings is explicitly idle money. Illiquid holdings are very different from cash that can deployed immediately. You certainly don’t hold 100% property and by definition that unspent money is savings. Savings can certainly be used to purchase securities, commodities, property, but then it’s no longer savings and is an investment.

slv77 5y ago

High inflation usually goes hand-in-hand with some degree of corruption that immensely benefits the connected and powerful. In Venezuela the government implemented exchange rates controls which were much more favorable then market based rates. Those with privilege and connections could purchase dollars at the official rate and then sell them at market rates at 10x what they paid for them. By this method an immense measure of the nations wealth could be expropriated. Commodities can be siphoned from producers with price controls and then liquidated at market rates. Eventually asset owners can be forced to sell when they can’t produce what is demanded at below market prices. Those that are close to decision makers can front run markets as the everything degenerates into a command economy. While not all inflation is theft inflation can facilitate theft on an epic scale. At some point all economic and political power shifts to those that benefit from inflation and it becomes politically impossible to “fix” inflation as power derived from it.

arcticbull 5y ago
High inflation hurts, proportionally, higher net worth individuals more than low net worth individuals.
- slv77 5y ago
  Inflation benefits debtors while it penalizes savers but the poorest segment of society is neither savers (as they have no disposable income) or debtors (as nobody will lend to them) and are hurt the most from inflation. A high net worth individual may lose expected future income due to inflation but someone that is poor may not eat today because of inflation. Eventually when inflation gets bad enough and real rates are negative producers will simply sit on commodities rather then distribute them. Leaving the oil in the ground maybe a better looking term wealth preservation strategy then pumping and selling the oil.