4 ms·

I remember how slowly high school math moved. How uninspired English class was. The poor curriculum and tools in programming class. imo, there is definitely a p

by spir 4y ago

I remember how slowly high school math moved. How uninspired English class was. The poor curriculum and tools in programming class. imo, there is definitely a primary and secondary education problem vs. the early-life academic environments that helped to produce yesteryear's great thinkers. https://erikhoel.substack.com/p/why-we-stopped-making-einsteins?s=w https://erikhoel.substack.com/p/why-we-stopped-making-einste...

nerdponx 4y ago
I have become convinced that inadequate public schooling is the reason why America has come to rely so much on college to make people "ready for society". Teachers are criminally underpaid, unsupported, and overworked, while parents are not engaged with their children's learning. It's a bad mix. Not to mention the politicization of teacher unions.
- javajosh 4y ago
  >Teachers are criminally underpaid, unsupported, and overworked My impression is that public school teachers have been un-empowered to fail out kids, or punish them for bad behavior in class.
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  If they’re overworked, what is it they’re working so hard and so ineffectively at?
  - brtkdotse 4y ago
    Don’t know about the US but in Sweden teachers are plagued by mandatory administrative task, as well as a myriad of small tasks all unrelated to teaching.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      I hear this a lot, but what exactly is administrative tasks they are being burdened with that is not part of being a teacher?
      - brtkdotse 4y ago
        From what I’ve heard from acquaintances who work(ed) as teachers, there’s a lot of of documentation of the students’ progress that takes a lot of time to enter but usually is write-only.
        dylan604 4y ago
        If it's known to be write-only, then only they are to blame for wasting time. They could literally write anything, or nothing, and nobody would ever know, right? Otherwise, it's not write-only.
        nerdponx 4y ago
        Or maybe it's write-only except for random audits.
  - chmod600 4y ago
    Accommodating students unwilling to learn or unprepared.
  - mellavora 4y ago
    I notice that you have perverted the meaning by adding the word "ineffective" which was not in the statement you are replying to, though you imply it was and that teachers are. As if the only way a person can be overworked is by not being effective at their job. And thus it is the teacher's failing that they cannot keep up with the workload, not the people assigning the workload. It seems you have had a very rare and fortunate life. I am happy for you, though I wish you had more respect for others.
    - nsxwolf 4y ago
      OP didn’t say it but an overarching theme in the comments here is that traditional public education is ineffective. So if teachers are overworked, they’ve got energy to expend but they’re expending it ineffectively. You took this a little far with the personal attack.
      - nerdponx 4y ago
        When you phrase it like this, you are implying that somehow the teachers directly are at fault for misdirecting their labor. So even if you are "technically correct" in some sense, you are phrasing it in an inflammatory way. Don't be a troll.
        nsxwolf 4y ago
        I didn’t mean to say it was their fault. I’m assuming they’re operating within the parameters required of them by their administrations.
  - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
    They're ineffective precisely because they're overworked.
pjbeam 4y ago
I was shocked to (re)discover that high school algebra is a multiyear course. And trigonometry is a year long. What?
- javajosh 4y ago
  I learned algebra in middle school, in one year. What is this insanity of which you speak?
  - pjbeam 4y ago
    https://www.fcps.edu/academics/graduation-requirements-and-course-planning/high-school-course-sequencing/mathematics https://www.fcps.edu/academics/graduation-requirements-and-c... Here's the HS math sequence options from my local school district in VA. Can't speak to many other places but this is what my above comment is based on.
    - ianbutler 4y ago
      Only one of those options will even leave you remotely prepared for college level mathematics. The fact it stops at Algebra 2 or Part 2 for most of those options is criminal.
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    “Algebra” by itself is meaninglessly broad. You could certainly teach “solve [some simple kinds of] equations for an unknown” in a few months; you could also have a whole mathematical career as an algebraist.
    - javajosh 4y ago
      The term is not meaninglessly broad here in the US. We use the term "abstract algebra" to describe the more general subject, usually taught in college-level courses in groups, fields, and so on. Mere 'algebra' does indeed mostly mean "solving for an unknown", although I'd argue there's an important, more general concept of 'equation' introduced. From what I've read the concept of 'variable' is tricky for a lot of kids.
jameshart 4y ago
One of the things that is deeply ingrained in education curricula, yet which doesn’t seem remotely justified pedagogically, is the timetable. The idea of studying lots of subjects, all at once, via daily or weekly sub-hour-long bite-sized lessons. If you threw out all the context switching and review and catch-up, you could probably teach most year-long high school subject curricula in a week.
- mellavora 4y ago
  It might not have been the teachers who decided on this schedule. I hear some tech workers complain that their days are made ineffective by lots of pointless meetings.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  I think you are on to something. At the same time I wonder about content sticking if you don't practice the subject for months. Doing math two months of the year (ignoring the math you might need in physics class) might mean you have to rehash a lot. That said, for many subjects this wouldn't even change anything. How often does learning something in history class currently rely on what you learned a few months ago? Rebec in my biology classes things rarely were connected. For a few weeks we talk about fungi and then for a few weeks about the cardiovascular system.
  - shakezula 4y ago
    Year-round schooling has proven this point time and time again. Students in summers-off schedules spend months catching back up to where they left off.
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  I slightly disagree. It takes time and repetition for some things to sink in. IMO, moving to more college-like A/B days would be better. I would not expect history lessons to stick if you compressed 180 days of AP Euro into two weeks at eight hours a day. Likewise, math classes moving that fast would give students the feeling they learned a ton without any retention. That said, I feel like literature and writing could be subjects that fit into this model of intensive week-long workshops once each year.
dylan604 4y ago
The thing that makes public schooling so frustrating is how they lump everyone together and then teach to the lowest common level. If you're in a school system that can afford to offer AP courses, some students have a chance of not being bored. The rest of the students have to deal with that fact that some of the students are only there because they haven't dropped out yet and the state requires their presence.

by spir 4y ago

nerdponx 4y ago

I have become convinced that inadequate public schooling is the reason why America has come to rely so much on college to make people "ready for society". Teachers are criminally underpaid, unsupported, and overworked, while parents are not engaged with their children's learning. It's a bad mix. Not to mention the politicization of teacher unions.

javajosh 4y ago
>Teachers are criminally underpaid, unsupported, and overworked My impression is that public school teachers have been un-empowered to fail out kids, or punish them for bad behavior in class.
nsxwolf 4y ago
If they’re overworked, what is it they’re working so hard and so ineffectively at?
- brtkdotse 4y ago
  Don’t know about the US but in Sweden teachers are plagued by mandatory administrative task, as well as a myriad of small tasks all unrelated to teaching.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    I hear this a lot, but what exactly is administrative tasks they are being burdened with that is not part of being a teacher?
    - brtkdotse 4y ago
      From what I’ve heard from acquaintances who work(ed) as teachers, there’s a lot of of documentation of the students’ progress that takes a lot of time to enter but usually is write-only.
      - dylan604 4y ago
        If it's known to be write-only, then only they are to blame for wasting time. They could literally write anything, or nothing, and nobody would ever know, right? Otherwise, it's not write-only.
        nerdponx 4y ago
        Or maybe it's write-only except for random audits.
- chmod600 4y ago
  Accommodating students unwilling to learn or unprepared.
- mellavora 4y ago
  I notice that you have perverted the meaning by adding the word "ineffective" which was not in the statement you are replying to, though you imply it was and that teachers are. As if the only way a person can be overworked is by not being effective at their job. And thus it is the teacher's failing that they cannot keep up with the workload, not the people assigning the workload. It seems you have had a very rare and fortunate life. I am happy for you, though I wish you had more respect for others.
  - nsxwolf 4y ago
    OP didn’t say it but an overarching theme in the comments here is that traditional public education is ineffective. So if teachers are overworked, they’ve got energy to expend but they’re expending it ineffectively. You took this a little far with the personal attack.
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      When you phrase it like this, you are implying that somehow the teachers directly are at fault for misdirecting their labor. So even if you are "technically correct" in some sense, you are phrasing it in an inflammatory way. Don't be a troll.
      - nsxwolf 4y ago
        I didn’t mean to say it was their fault. I’m assuming they’re operating within the parameters required of them by their administrations.
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  They're ineffective precisely because they're overworked.

pjbeam 4y ago

I was shocked to (re)discover that high school algebra is a multiyear course. And trigonometry is a year long. What?

javajosh 4y ago
I learned algebra in middle school, in one year. What is this insanity of which you speak?
- pjbeam 4y ago
  https://www.fcps.edu/academics/graduation-requirements-and-course-planning/high-school-course-sequencing/mathematics https://www.fcps.edu/academics/graduation-requirements-and-c... Here's the HS math sequence options from my local school district in VA. Can't speak to many other places but this is what my above comment is based on.
  - ianbutler 4y ago
    Only one of those options will even leave you remotely prepared for college level mathematics. The fact it stops at Algebra 2 or Part 2 for most of those options is criminal.
- mattkrause 4y ago
  “Algebra” by itself is meaninglessly broad. You could certainly teach “solve [some simple kinds of] equations for an unknown” in a few months; you could also have a whole mathematical career as an algebraist.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    The term is not meaninglessly broad here in the US. We use the term "abstract algebra" to describe the more general subject, usually taught in college-level courses in groups, fields, and so on. Mere 'algebra' does indeed mostly mean "solving for an unknown", although I'd argue there's an important, more general concept of 'equation' introduced. From what I've read the concept of 'variable' is tricky for a lot of kids.

jameshart 4y ago

One of the things that is deeply ingrained in education curricula, yet which doesn’t seem remotely justified pedagogically, is the timetable. The idea of studying lots of subjects, all at once, via daily or weekly sub-hour-long bite-sized lessons. If you threw out all the context switching and review and catch-up, you could probably teach most year-long high school subject curricula in a week.

mellavora 4y ago
It might not have been the teachers who decided on this schedule. I hear some tech workers complain that their days are made ineffective by lots of pointless meetings.
ajmurmann 4y ago
I think you are on to something. At the same time I wonder about content sticking if you don't practice the subject for months. Doing math two months of the year (ignoring the math you might need in physics class) might mean you have to rehash a lot. That said, for many subjects this wouldn't even change anything. How often does learning something in history class currently rely on what you learned a few months ago? Rebec in my biology classes things rarely were connected. For a few weeks we talk about fungi and then for a few weeks about the cardiovascular system.
- shakezula 4y ago
  Year-round schooling has proven this point time and time again. Students in summers-off schedules spend months catching back up to where they left off.
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
I slightly disagree. It takes time and repetition for some things to sink in. IMO, moving to more college-like A/B days would be better. I would not expect history lessons to stick if you compressed 180 days of AP Euro into two weeks at eight hours a day. Likewise, math classes moving that fast would give students the feeling they learned a ton without any retention. That said, I feel like literature and writing could be subjects that fit into this model of intensive week-long workshops once each year.

dylan604 4y ago

The thing that makes public schooling so frustrating is how they lump everyone together and then teach to the lowest common level. If you're in a school system that can afford to offer AP courses, some students have a chance of not being bored. The rest of the students have to deal with that fact that some of the students are only there because they haven't dropped out yet and the state requires their presence.